Proof-of-Payment (POP) vs. Traditional Ticket Collection

ElectricTraction wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 9:13 pm

HenryAlan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:52 amYou keep making this statement in various ways, but I'd like to see some evidence that POP is a significantly common payment system anywhere in North America. Aside from MUNI, I can't think of a major system that uses it. What are some other examples of non-dinosaur agencies using proof of payment?

From Patrick O'Hara's incredible work on the subject:

Coaster, Metrolink, Caltrain, Sounder, West Coast Express, NM RailRunner, UTA Frontrunner, and SunRail. NJTransit’s Hudson-Bergen, RiverLine, and Newark light rail systems also use PoP, as well as the MTA’s Select Bus Service (SBS)

You've listed a bunch of CR/Regional Rail systems for the most part. I don't really even consider those as relevant to this discussion, since almost all such systems (including the so-called dinosaurs) use a variant of POP. That's what the conductors are doing when they check your ticket.

eolesen wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 10:13 pmYou've had three different people produce contradictory information that's easily verifiable from public records.

I've had several people use circular non-logic to say that it can't be done because it's only ever been done on railroads that are smaller. WHAT?

RandallW wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 5:02 amI saw those numbers the first time you posted them, and asked that you show how you arrived at them because I am genuinely interested in that process and the data you used.

I went through the whole process in an excessive amount of detail in my previous post.

HenryAlan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 1:06 pmYou've listed a bunch of CR/Regional Rail systems for the most part. I don't really even consider those as relevant to this discussion, since almost all such systems (including the so-called dinosaurs) use a variant of POP. That's what the conductors are doing when they check your ticket.

POP is different than collecting tickets, as you don't have to collect them all. I'm talking about LIRR and MNRR, which are commuter/regional rail railroads. So how are other commuter and regional rail systems not relevant to those commuter and regional rail systems? That's where the logic falls apart.

So just to re-iterate, the original point I was making is that OPTO (for small trains) or smaller crews (for larger trains) not only would save LIRR alone around $300M/year, and likely MNRR almost as much, but it would allow railroads to add more service at much lower marginal cost. That's the key point to understand here. It benefits LIRR more, as they have more various branchlines, some of which have low service levels at certain times of the day. And that's all before you get into how lowering fares may actually increase revenue since ridership is much more elastic than one would think (the traditional thought being that rail commuters are captive).

POP is key to modernizing and transforming these railroads into efficient, modern regional rail systems for the benefit of the metro areas that they are located within.

It would seem that LIRR could use some kind of the British system of POP at exits on the single route stations. If the ticket checkers could get off at the station where any single route starts then some kind of gate at those stations could only allow valid tickets to exit. Otherwise, anyone without a valid ticket would have to pay full fare from NYP or station where rider had a valid ticket to would be accepted.

The implementation could be in synch to retirements of ticket checkers.

So I found this, https://ssti.us/wp-content/uploads/site ... nt-TRB.pdf
I wasn't able to find a cost comparision of the "dinosaurs" vs. POP
But a couple of quotes from the summery were:
Measuring Performance—A majority of operators
(62.1%) do not set fare evasion goals, and even more
(72.4%) do not set inspection goals.
and
Transit Industry Pulse Regarding Proof-of-Payment
Fare Collection—A small majority of operators
(56.3%) expressed being moderately or very satisfied
with the cost-effectiveness of their PoP fare collection
operation.
Also all the information I've been finding has been for busses and LRV's and the like where they do use one employee on the vehicle and POP does allows users to board faster, though with trains people board just as fast and then get checked by the conductor so I don't feel that there is a true comparison with the research papers I found.

Don't the London, Paris, and Madrid commuter networks function on faregates at major terminals plus proof of payment for distance traveled? I also don't frequent inspection on JR in Tokyo, and they don't have faregates at some outlying stations and frequently leave the ones at major terminals open at peak due to high passenger numbers.

Though it seems like this thread isn't going to go everywhere, people are just arguing about facts they claim are opinions, maybe this thread should get locked...?

So I found the source of the OP's numbers at Proof of Payment | The LIRR Today but still have no clue why the OP persistently refused to provide a direct link to it.

Yeah, that article ignores a basic fact of railroading: staffing is negotiated as part of the union contract.

Fantasize about running single crew commuter trains all you want, but the FRA has already ruled otherwise. Two person minimum crew is regulatory policy.

If you can't face the fact that the union won't give up those dues paying members, your arguments are academic at best.



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RandallW wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 5:47 am So I found the source of the OP's numbers at Proof of Payment | The LIRR Today but still have no clue why the OP persistently refused to provide a direct link to it.

Everyone: I have been reluctant to post anything in this topic being that this has become a somewhat
heated discussion among some opionated individuals over the collection processes of commuter rail fares...

RW: With your finding a past BANNED RR.Net member came to my mind with the screen name lirr42...
Join Date: December 29, 2011 - Last Post: March 17, 2015...Most Active Forum: LIRR - 1045 posts

lirr42 could be confrontational with other RR.Net members in subjects such as these:
(Both topics are from the LIRR Forum archives)
expanded-city-zone-service-paycard-entr ... 58930.html
(4 pages with 55 posts - February 21-March 17, 2015)
how-might-a-broken-rail-be-discovered-t158820.html
(5 pages with 63 posts - February 6-March 24, 2015)

Read through the posts of both of these topics and note how the two ongoing discussions both evolved
along with the mention of the banning of lirr42 from Railroad.Net...

lirr42 was involved with the LIRR Today website which was not affiliated or sanctioned by the MTA...
MACTRAXX

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 8:27 amYeah, that article ignores a basic fact of railroading: staffing is negotiated as part of the union contract.

Most contracts are something like 5 years. They can be renegotiated probably before a modernized fare collection system could be fully implemented.

Fantasize about running single crew commuter trains all you want, but the FRA has already ruled otherwise. Two person minimum crew is regulatory policy.

You have to have an engineer AND a conductor. There's nothing saying that they can't be the same person.

If you can't face the fact that the union won't give up those dues paying members, your arguments are academic at best.

That could be dealt with, but like many other issues, the rampant corruption and out of control unions in the NYC metro area holds it back from a lot of things. I'm mostly pro-union, but at some point, like with the LIRR union, they're so blatantly ridiculous that at some point the politicians need to stand up to these clowns.

MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 1:42 pmlirr42 could be confrontational with other RR.Net members in subjects such as these:
(Both topics are from the LIRR Forum archives)
expanded-city-zone-service-paycard-entr ... 58930.html
(4 pages with 55 posts - February 21-March 17, 2015)
how-might-a-broken-rail-be-discovered-t158820.html
(5 pages with 63 posts - February 6-March 24, 2015)

At a quick glance, that sounds like Patrick O'Hara. He's the authoritative expert in the LIRR. I wish someone could put him in charge of the place, he clearly loves Long Island and wants the LIRR to help it grow instead of being in the way of such growth.

I'm behind on reading TheLIRRToday, but it is an incredible blog/newsletter with unparalleled research and knowledge of the LIRR and all of it's problems. I've communicated via email a few times with Patrick, but not in several years.

andrewjw wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 8:55 pm I also don't frequent inspection on JR in Tokyo, and they don't have faregates at some outlying stations and frequently leave the ones at major terminals open at peak due to high passenger numbers.

Those gates will shut and send you to the ER if you try to pass through them without tagging.

Similarly if you try to exit without having tagged on at a starting station.

ElectricTraction wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 8:02 pmAt a quick glance, that sounds like Patrick O'Hara. He's the authoritative expert in the LIRR. I wish someone could put him in charge of the place, he clearly loves Long Island and wants the LIRR to help it grow instead of being in the way of such growth.

I’m really fascinated by how someone who has never worked on a railroad somehow becomes an “authoritative expert” on it. How does that work exactly? Does someone become an authoritative expert in medicine without ever practicing it? Perhaps there are authoritative experts in the field of civil engineering who have never worked on a bridge, highway, etc?

I feel like a chump, really. All this time in my life, I had been led to believe that to be an expert in something, you must have actual firsthand experience doing at least something tangentially related to it! But no, apparently having an axe to grind on the internet for multiple decades (!!) is all it takes these days. Silly me.

ElectricTraction wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 8:02 pm You have to have an engineer AND a conductor. There's nothing saying that they can't be the same person.

Actually, there is. There are two laws/regulations here.

1) NY State Law requires two man crew.

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/ ... ill--70864

2) 49 CFR {art 218, Subpart G, which went into effect in May 2024, mandates two man crews for FRA covered operations. There are some exceptions for tourist railroads and closed systems, but MNRR and LIRR don't fall under the intent of those exemptions.

ElectricTraction wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 8:02 pm That could be dealt with, but like many other issues, the rampant corruption and out of control unions in the NYC metro area holds it back from a lot of things. I'm mostly pro-union, but at some point, like with the LIRR union, they're so blatantly ridiculous that at some point the politicians need to stand up to these clowns.

Good luck with that. Politicians stay in office because of "those clowns" and their power and/or campaign donations. And it's pretty clear Democrats are loath to overtly bite the hand that feeds them.

NYS law only affects freight, but Part 218 indeed affects everyone with some carveouts that are irrelevant in this context: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/s ... on-218.123

Note that e.g. even Caltrain runs with two-person crews. Are there any "non dinosaur" commuter passenger operations that run with 1?

Going back to the late 1960s SEPTA's Silverliner IIIs were designed and built for exactly that, with the left side cab intended for the engineer to operate one-man crew as a single car train in Harrisburg service, in which he would also collect fares and make change much like a bus operator.