Potential MBTA Southern NH Service

If Amtrak runs it (I think this is the only real way that it would ever reach Concord again), it ought to run all the way to Montreal.

Who has higher fees, MBTA or Amtrak? I am assuming Amtrak charges more for crew, cars and locomotives. CTDOT chose another carrier for their Harford Line service while owning or leasing the equipment themselves. CTDOT contracts with one company to run Hartford Line while contracting with Amtrak to run Shore Line East and Metro-North to run New Haven Line. Different decisions based on cost, convenience, etc.

As for frequency, Amtrak would run whatever frequency NHDOT wants to pay for, assuming they have the crew and equipment which they probably don't. No reason some trains can't run to Concord and others terminate at Manchester. Amtrak also doesn't have maintenance facilities on the north side and would have to shuttle everything to the south side or rotate out on the NEC or Lake Shore Ltd.

NH's 2014 document says NH would have to pay for 1 eight-car? trainset to be added to the pool. A shuttle operation like I suggested would probably need 2 shorter trainsets + spares. The MBTA could refuse to allow another provider to access Lowell station or tracks in MA, but imagine how bad that would look. They could refuse service, saying Lowell platform doesn't have room for multiple trains to dwell, or isn't long enough for trains to dwell head-to-head or the train blocks don't allow it or some other bologna.

My understanding with CTDOT, in talking to someone close to it, is that Amtrak balked at providing any additional service so they had no choice but to solicit another carrier. The service style is drastically different too, with Amtrak providing 2x2 seating as opposed to MBTA's 3x2. So yes, I would guess Amtrak is more expensive, especially because it's a whole new route for them. For the MBTA it's just the difference between their current Lowell service and what NH wants for service. They could even get a layover out of it, which the Lowell line could use.

As for Lowell, there are ton's of reasons why you wouldn't do it, first and foremost is liability. Second is protecting their own service. Being quite familiar with the operations there, I can tell you many of the things you mention are real and are not "bologna". Operations are handled a certain way in the real world for a reason.

The MBTA would definitely try for a new layover facility up in New Hampshire, and the Lowell Line (which will be the Manchester Line or Manchester/Nashua Line by then) will finally have a layover facility, but we all know how New Hampshire feels about layover facilities, thankfully, current plans call for a possible layover facility to be located in an Industrial area so lets hope that this time they aren't as big a nuisance.

I always wondered why the T never made a layover facility in the old Lowell yards or at Iron Horse Park?

Who knows, maybe they were anticipating an extension of the line and decided to wait and see what came out of it. As for possible layover sites in Manchester, here is an article that states that two sites are being considered, the existing "Pan Am South" yard (preferred site) and the Manchester Waste Water Treatment Plant: https://www.nhbr.com/commuter-rail-stat ... dor-study/

And about possible future issues with CSX about passenger service on the line that were discussed earlier in the forum, the article also claims this:

CSX Transportation, which is pursuing acquisition of Pan Am Railways, has told the New Hampshire Department of Transportation that it is “committed” to upgrading the track on the New Hampshire Main Line between Nashua and Concord, which is owned and operated by Pan Am, to allow the speed of freight trains to increase to 25 mph. However, further investment in infrastructure would be required to accommodate the much higher speed of commuter rail service.

Would the MBTA be opposed to some other carrier providing connecting service from NH points to Lowell for any reason other than operational difficulties, capacity of the station, etc.? Third-party connecting service sounds like a free source of additional end-to-end riders on the Lowell Line (ie riders paying the highest possible fares/buying the most expensive passes). I wouldn't think the T would approach NH service as a profit center; I'd think they'd seek enough subsidy to cover costs. So maybe the unions would like the T to run that service to create a few more jobs, but the T itself shouldn't mind. I would think that objections to connecting service at Lowell would be based on real or imagined problems, not on trying to fend off competition on a route the T doesn't serve. It would be different if whoever provided the service was being allowed to provide competing service or take over a current T route (as for example when IP took over the Hoosier State contract (at least the equipment and OBS parts) and Amtrak seemed not to be best pleased with losing the business and perhaps feared a bunch of other states would also choose different providers leaving Amtrak with idle equipment and less income to spread over the various fixed costs of the system.

I would imagine that either the MBTA or Amtrak would operate this service, with the MBTA being the better candidate, because like njtmnrrbuff said,

It's just an extension of the route from Lowell, MA.

while for Amtrak its an entirely new route after the Wildcat branches from the New Hampshire Main Line.
Something I am wondering is if the opposition to the project is actually significant as of yet or not, they love to call the facts presented by the studies "propaganda", which really just shows how laughable they are.

Red Wing wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:10 pm I always wondered why the T never made a layover facility in the old Lowell yards or at Iron Horse Park?

Lowell station was the layover facility when the current station was built. Problems with crime in and around the station forced its closure and the current setup of the line operating out of Boston.

Thank you for the answer.I thought I remembered that but my brain was a little fuzzy. It's been awhile since I've commuted to Boston from Lowell but I seem to remember that the station tracks would also have to be connected to the mainline.

Crime is another reason NIMBYs in NH oppose this extension, they fall for the fallacy that public transport increases crime, despite the fact that there are many great and peaceful communities served by the Commuter Rail, a fact they like to ignore.

Crime is another reason NIMBYs in NH oppose this extension, they fall for the fallacy that public transport increases crime

As a resident of a town with 2 Commuter Rail stops, I can confirm that there are a constant flow of hoodlums paying the $15 for the roundtrip from Boston and then walking many miles from the station to homes in the town in order to assault citizens and steal all of their stuff.

(sarcasm)

@FatNoah: Posts like yours are why I wish we'd incorporate a 'like' button!

The irony is that commuter rail service has been the economic driver behind the revitalizations of cities like Lowell, Worcester, and very recently Lawrence. Crime already riddles Nashua, which would undoubtedly see a decline in such with passenger rail service rather than an increase. It seems the city is well aware of this, but the powers that be in the state government need to be convinced.

FatNoah wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:14 pm

Crime is another reason NIMBYs in NH oppose this extension, they fall for the fallacy that public transport increases crime

As a resident of a town with 2 Commuter Rail stops, I can confirm that there are a constant flow of hoodlums paying the $15 for the roundtrip from Boston and then walking many miles from the station to homes in the town in order to assault citizens and steal all of their stuff.

(sarcasm)

@FatNoah hahahahahahah, I agree with CRail, I wish we had a like button here, but since we don't, I'll give you this:

Crime already riddles Nashua, which would undoubtedly see a decline in such with passenger rail service rather than an increase

@CRail: from what I have heard, its a much bigger issue in Manchester than in Nashua, in fact, I read that Nashua has a crime rate of about 10 in 1000 residents, while Manchester has consistently been slammed for its higher-than-average crime rate, this is just what I have read though, I could obviously be wrong

(Using Lowell as the example) What would be the difference in performance between a Lowell inbound to Boston delayed so an arriving New Hampshire to Lowell train could make a connection, compared with the New Hampshire train being through routed to Boston, serving as the Lowell to Boston run for that time slot.

I read at least one account of suburbanites concerned about a transit extension from downtown bringing crime, this example outside Baltimore. Some arrests were made at a shopping mall near the newly opened transit terminal and the hoodlums were found to be residents of the suburban town.