Southern Tier Line Gang Mills - Elmira Gas Traffic

Not to make light of this situation, but I've got to believe that the bean counters are driving this train at some level since capacity means cost.

Matt, I'm not disagreeing with you about the need for expanded capacity but rather trying to figure out the why behind this "new" road switcher policy. Understanding the logic for the policy doesn't give any assurance tha the policy will work in practice.

K4 -- is sand what is clogging up the system? And what are the scheduling logistics for getting it down the Tier from Bison?

Another interesting discussion might be the intended purpose of Gang Mills at its inception versus what its role has morphed into today.

Poppyl

POPY (old Portland to Pot Yard during Guilford),
Do you want during the Erie years, during late 50s expansion when street running ended where Denison Parkway is now and consolidation of DLW? Do you want patterns after 72 Agnes Flood? Conrail years? You know this is going to be a lot of typing. I'm tired.

K4Pacific wrote:POPY (old Portland to Pot Yard during Guilford),
Do you want during the Erie years, during late 50s expansion when street running ended where Denison Parkway is now and consolidation of DLW? Do you want patterns after 72 Agnes Flood? Conrail years? You know this is going to be a lot of typing. I'm tired.

I know that you are tired (and busy as heck, too) so lets keep the current discussion to sand only. I'll start a separate thread on the history of the Gang Mills yard that you can get to as you feel like it and time permits.

My questions on the sand is how is it scheduled out of Bison? Does it leave on the first available or are you guys running unit trains at this point? And how much of the "space problem" is the empties waiting to get back west? Finally, from your perspective, are the drillers part of the problem/solution here as they are holding sand inventory in the cars rather than on the ground or not ordering the sand on a "just in time" inventory basis? I know that the customer is always right but, if their procedures aren't helping, maybe working together can be a win-win for everyone.

As I said, I'll put something up to get Gang Mills started in the next day or so.

BTW, thanks for the useful information that you provide. My knowledge is the better for it.

Poppyl

There is a sand off loader behind Del-Ripples in Bigflats that I dont think has been mentioned on here yet.But that has been there for a while nothing new.

K4Pacific wrote:Matt, the first observation regarding TRS is that from the old heads standpoint the new "kids" are doing the usual brain thrust to make their plan of action. Doesn't work. Spin the wheel. Next. On your second point for observation is just that capacity. Theres a nice train with a marker on the A&P Industrial. Plus, local is already switching horse heads. A third observation from the old heads from over the weekend has fingers pointing to Bison. Do the preblocking better up there. BTW yesterday's Sayre turn was HUGE. MT salt, Nat gas supplies, Mahoopanies for LVRR. Big one.

Interesting observations... and I mean that as a compliment.

NS may have bitten off more than it can chew right now. I can only hope they prove me wrong.

poppyl wrote:Another interesting discussion might be the intended purpose of Gang Mills at its inception versus what its role has morphed into today.

Strangely enough, this year is the 60th anniversary of the yard at Gang Mills. The Erie and EL certainly moved more traffic during the '50s-'70s than NS does now... but the mainline was double track until 1993 or so. I'd also be willing to bet Erie and EL had more crews and more locomotives back in the day. The yards were definitely bigger- that's for sure. Maybe the solution is back to the future?

sallenparks wrote:There is a sand off loader behind Del-Ripples in Bigflats that I dont think has been mentioned on here yet.But that has been there for a while nothing new.

I must admit that I do not have any first hand knowledge of how the sand off loading works in Northern PA/Southern Tier but I do know that at the Lewisburg PA facility the sand sits in the cars until off-loaded into trailers to be hauled to the drilling sites. There is no interim storage, so depending upon how busy things are, the cars may sit there anywhere from a few days to up to two or three weeks.

Ultimately a lot of this issue boils down to inventory management by the drillers. To a large extent, NS is riding the tail of the dragon and getting whipsawed as a result. NS can effect change for those factors that they control but some aspects are beyond their control at this point.

Poppyl

Matt Langworthy wrote:

poppyl wrote:Another interesting discussion might be the intended purpose of Gang Mills at its inception versus what its role has morphed into today.

Strangely enough, this year is the 60th anniversary of the yard at Gang Mills. The Erie and EL certainly moved more traffic during the '50s-'70s than NS does now... but the mainline was double track until 1993 or so. I'd also be willing to bet Erie and EL had more crews and more locomotives back in the day. The yards were definitely bigger- that's for sure. Maybe the solution is back to the future?

Wasn't there controversy on removing the second track west of Binghamton to begin with? Maybe they made the wrong decision. Some bi-directional signalled double track would probably be looking good right about now...

That's my thinking but then again a lot of railroads think they can run single track but then when volume grows there back to double some times triple UP BNSF for example.AS for sand around Elmira the cars sit untill off loaded no where to store it.

As I recall, at least part of the Lehigh Line in NJ was double tracked to alleivate traffic snarls. One would think that NS learned from that expereince, but perhaps not. There is a real irony with the Tier- the growth in gas traffic might jeopardize intermodal traffic.

That would not be a good irony, either, since one way or the other the gas traffic will have a finite life whereas intermodal won't (barring some devastating economic collapse). The bean counters (and others) must be assessing the strength and length of the gas business to see if the ROI for additional capacity on the Tier is there.

Another example of planning and reality going in different directions is the amount of funding that went into maintaining/upgrading the Corning Secondary, ostensibly for heavier drags to Dresden, only to have the plant shut down about a year after the NS project was completed.

Speaking of the Secondary, if some of the sand is not extremely time sensitive, how about parking some of it at Greenridge or on the Dresden siding? Seems like HO-6 could handle that job.

Poppyl

some gets parked in Bakerstreet yard I see it all the time the other two spots I don't know.

Before the Greenridge power plant at Dresden was laid up earlier this year, the plant's coal drags were often parked at Baker Street before heading north. With the end of the drags, space was freed up for sand car parking. The current capacity situation would be even worse if the Dresden deliveries were still running.

There is a nice long switching siding at Dresden and trackage within the Greenridge property that has not been used since the plant's lay up. Not sure, but I believe the hopper capacity to be somewhere around fifty or sixty. Problem is that it is about 45 miles north of Corning so not convenient for any time-sensitive requirements.

Poppyl

In addition to the time requirement, the Corning Secondary might not be a good choice if there is a lack of engineers qualified to run on it.

Hello poppyl gosh a hoverview of the gang mills yard from comrail on would be AWSOME! I grew up 1/2 mile from the lumber st bridge,now that I live in hornell ny, I ve wondered why get rid of hornell south yards and expand gang mills as an crew change-major yard. why cant n.s. EXPAND the yard at gang mills east of the car shop? after hillarys dream hwy was done(rt. 15-i 86)? used to be a dump, taxi garage& atrucking firm there witch is gone lotta empty space now that ns can get on the cheap! thanks