• C&O Allengenhy #1601

  • Discussion of steam locomotives from all manufacturers and railroads
Discussion of steam locomotives from all manufacturers and railroads

Moderators: Typewriters, slide rules

  by Robert Gift
 
Thank you, Juniatha.

I appreciate your time and effort in explaining all these things to me.
But I have difficulty understanding much of what you say because of the poetic wayou convey it.

Where would one place a THIRD cylinder?

Under the boiler between the other two?
I would think it would be very difficult to service/inspect.

I was not wanting to make thengine heavier.
Just why so much weight on the leading and trailing trucks instead of on another pair of drivers.
I appreciate that Diesel engines have 100% weight on driving wheels.

I shall reread your posts.
Thank you,
  by Juniatha
 
Hi Robert

Diesel locos as any fully bogie suspended loco concept have full-adhesion wheel arrangements (w/a) such as B-B / C-C / D-D or BB-BB or B-B-B / C-C-C not to mention the odd w/a's possible.
That is: they have no carrying axles. That is their great advantage in starting t.e. over classic concept steam.
To build a steam loco of the power output of a Challenger, you have to give it a certain size boiler. This has a certain - large - masse. This in turn demands a chassis that is substantial enough to support it and hold the forces induced by the cylinders. So the chassis by itself will become of substantial masse by itself. This, in respect of the given axle load limitation (!) will demand a certain number of axles in total. Of this total only so many axles can be driven because the number of coupled axles in one drive set is again limited by considerations of curving, of mechanical stress by drive forces etc.
At the time the Challenger was developed, the first of challenges went to design. A two times six-coupled design of a comparatively fast running engine was something that first asked to be accomplished at that time.
Care was taken, the frames and chassis structure would be strong enough to stand daily hard working. It became a story of success. Building upon it and experience gained with it the Big Boy design was developed to get a two times eight-coupled design and still keep the fast running qualities.
In order to have good tracking characteristics, classic concept steam locos need carrying axles in trucks or bogies to guide the loco at front. And they need further carrying axles to support the firebox end of the boiler. It is thus not that carrying axles make an engine weaker but they make it stronger at speed because they allow for a bigger boiler. Having those axles you have to allow a certain minimum load so to protect them from flanges climbing rail in switches or adverse rail conditions. The load admitted on the front bogie of the Challengers met these requirements. It is my personal view that a four wheel bogie was not really necessary, a two wheel Zara or Krauss-Helmholtz truck would have done equally well, would have saved some weight and would have allowed for fully identical drive design of front and rear sets. But as things were, UP never used such trucks and they found no problem in using a four wheel design. As concerns the rear delta truck it was loaded as necessary to support boiler masse, i.e.: after having distributed all the admissible weight to drivers, which was done, the rest goes to these trucks. There is no other way.
I think you should perhaps not compare steam to diesel one-to-one in view of tractive effort. If diesels have one indisputable advantage over steam it is their formidable starting effort. But starting a train is one thing - accelerating it to revenue earning speed is another. That latter point is where boiler capacity joins the game: the more steaming the more power at speed and the higher the sustained running speed with a given load. That is where a 4-6-6-4 was superior to a 2-6-6-2 for instance, and in fact even to a 2-8-8-2 of same overall engine weight because of the specific output characteristics of the two engine types at speed.

A third cylinder:
Yes, placed in the middle between frames and usually near the transversal plane of the outer cylinders. Three cylinder machines were used in 4-8-2, in 4-10-2 and in one 4-12-2 design, the latter unique of the Union Pacific which had a daring and capable loco design department that developed the design in cooperation with the ALCO as far back as the 1920s.
Many European engine designs used a three cylinder machine, mostly for fast running engines but in cases also for freight. The hill climbing capacity of the DR 44 class three cylinder Decapod was legendary (for European conditions of axle loads, engine size and train loads; DR = Deutsche Reichsbahn).
I hope it will not come puzzling - but there were four cylinder designs also, and those were often realized as compound machines, having two high pressure and two low pressure cylinders, one set outsides one set insides the frames.
No, this is not the end of the story, there were design studies put up for five cylinder compound machines for 2-10-4 and 4-8-4 engines and there was one engine built that had a six cylinder compound machine to drive a twelve coupled wheel set, the 160.A.1 locomotive.
There were Mallet designs put up with two cylinder on the high pressure set and three or four cylinders on the low pressure set in order to cure the throttling effects caused by excessive cylinder volume of ordinary two low pressure cylinder designs. And there were three engines built that had six cylinders distributed over three drive sets, although these were all arranged outsides as in ordinary two cylinder engines but set in compound mode with the central engine as high pressure, the front and the tender engine as low pressure units. These were Henderson's Triplex designs, an early effort towards to your idea of full adhesion or nearly ...

They gave me a highball, have to leave
-bye-

Juniatha


Image

edit: signature & eagle (picture by Ronnie Hedge)
Last edited by Juniatha on Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

  by Robert Gift
 
Fascinating!

Thank you, Juniatha.

Robert

  by u25b
 
I would get behind any attempt to new-build a loco. My overwhelming choice would be a copy of the NYC niagara, with a J class NYC hudson or a PRR T1 as an alternative. I guess, because I am not an American, I would even be prepared to accept any country of origin-so long as the job was done right. Copy a classic loco with a few modern mods. The English are doing it with a number of long extinct locos right now-including getting a new boiler built in Germany for a main line express passenger 4-6-2!

Wes

  by jgallaway81
 
Personally, I think there is MAJOR improvement room on the H8 Allegheny

Since the H*s were OVER designed, and under-utilized, there is plenty of tinker room.
  by GOLDEN-ARM
 
Juniatha wrote:Hi Robert

Diesel locos as any fully bogie suspended loco concept have full-adhesion wheel arrangements (w/a) such as B-B / C-C / D-D or BB-BB or B-B-B / C-C-C not to mention the odd w/a's possible.
That is: they have no carrying axles. That is their great advantage in starting t.e. over classic concept steam.
This might seem true, but alas, it's flawed. There are, in fact, many diesels that DO NOT have all axles powered. The typical "E" units, from passenger service, come to mind quickly. They have three axle, six wheeled trucks, with only two motors per truck. This arrangement is known as an "A-1-A" arrangement, with "A" representing a powered axle, "1" representing an idler, or unpowered axle, and the last "A" being the second powered axle, on the truck. There are smaller locos, that have idlers, and even chain driven/rod driven axles. The TE from those, are "split", as the motor powering one axle is sharing it's affect, with another, through an outside mean of propulsion. I can think of some "straight" electric motors, with unpowered trucks, on each end, used to support weights, and to guide rigid underframes, with fixed mounting drivers, into curves. There are rigid, and flexible mountings of power trucks under diesel, and electric locos. Those rigid frames, by their very nature, will suspend, and un-suspend the weight of the loco, onto various wheelsets, due to variations in track in both tangent (level tangent) and curvature. Just a thought.......

  by Juniatha
 
Hi Trainsforbrains

But they're building an old engine anew - no new design incorporated. I know of one guy who was with the group in the beginning and he tried to introduce some really valuable design features of his - to no avail: the tradition-minded would not want to have it.
No deviation from the sacred Pepercorn design. It was said, the sponsors would not understand it nor want it.


Hi, Golden Arm

Well, ok ... If you don't power those bogie axles, then of course they're not powered.
The A1A-A1A w/a was used in the early years of dieselization, yes.
I was talking of modern concepts and theses days I think you will hardly find such an A1A-A1A w/a. (Besides I wrote: not to mention the odd w/a possible - that should have included A1A-A1A or 1Bo-Bo1 or what have you)
That was just a way to lower axle loads when the engines were having power for just four driven axles but weight asked for six of them. The traction motors also were bulky and it was much simpler to install two of them in a symetrical layout then to find space for three motors in an asymetrical bogie layout with either asymetrical wheel spacings or all motors of all axles hung in at each the same side.
These intermediate carrying axles served no other purpose, on the contrary, everyone was glad to see the last of them with weights coming down because a two axle bogie inscribes better in curves and has lower flange wear. So what was formerly an A1A-A1A has then been cut down into a B-B unit.
Agree?

Juniatha

  by TRAINSFORBRAINS
 
Juniatha,

I see your point about it not beeing 'new' steam. I can understand the idea to stick with the original design also. I read somewhere on thier site that they did have to change some of the design due to current safety reg's. One thing was that air brakes would be added as well as the original vaccum brake system. I think the boiler had more stringent design reqirements too. If the performance enhancing design changes that your guy suggested didn't change the cosmetics, I personally would think they should have been incorporated. Oh and I just remembered another one that they changed, the water scoop was taken out of the design so that they could have more water capacity in the tender.
Just a random thought here but, if someone were ambitious enough to replicate any of the Hiawatha's like the A1 trust has with the Peppercorn, they could get away with all kinds of design changes hidden under the streamlining work and still satisfy those who like the look of the locomotive.
I love the idea of people getting together to build a steam engine. With all the intrest in"live steam" I dont know why its not done more often. its almost the same ammount of work too. Have you seen what people do in the 'grand scale live steam' world, its incredible, they are almost there, why not go all the way to full size?
I hope I win the Mega million lottery someday and then build my very own Hudson! The Hiawatha I will use as a test bed for new designs and the Bigboy will be built just to blow peoples minds!!! :-D

  by jgallaway81
 
Well, for those interested in 'new' steam, check out the 5AT Group in Britain.

http://www.5at.co.uk/ - The group is backed by master steam engineer David Wardale, and took the needed performace and reverse engineered the steam locomotives design from that point.

  by TRAINSFORBRAINS
 
5AT looks like a worthy project for the 'New Steam' subject, I hope they do well. While there I found a link to this... http://www.rhdr.org.uk/rhdr/rhdr.html
...which prooves my point about the grand scale community of steam guys.... why not go all the way and build it full size? Those beauties must cost alot and require lots of time! I have much respect for thier accomplishments though. :-)

  by Engineer James
 
*Confused* Where did this thread come from?? Thought it got deleted. Oh well....

This sounds interesting. But, it is british. I have to say I give IOWA INTERSTATE Credit for bringing those 2-10-0's from China.

  by TRAINSFORBRAINS
 
I wonder if Iowa Interstate has plans to 'Americanize' thier QJ's, which would be a strange irony since the design seems to already have alot of American influence. They seem to be one paint scheme away from something UP would have ordered.