#14 Orange Line Cars 1400-1551 (From Red/Orange Procurement discussion)

MBTA3247 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:51 pm The Boeing overhaul and second Type 7 order were both completed several years before the first Type 8 was delivered.

1995-96 for the MK/Amerail overhaul, 1997 for the 3700s. I find it odd timing for a second batch of Type 7s to be
built 10 years after the the originals and just a year before the first Type 8's debut.

MBTA3247 wrote:The Boeing overhaul and second Type 7 order were both completed several years before the first Type 8 was delivered. The issues with the Type 8s did keep the overhauled Boeings around for years longer than they would have been otherwise.

I'll acknowledge the timeline - now imagine if the MBTA had done nothing prior to receiving the Type 8s, which were clearly ordered later than they should have been?

Adams_Umass_Boston wrote:They could send those over to the Orange line since they are the same cars.

Mechanically they are similar but they are not the same size. The Orange Line cars are 65 feet long and 9' 3" wide, while the Red Line cars are 69 feet long and 10 feet wide. A Red Line car would not fit on the Orange Line, and an Orange Line car on the Red Line would need extensions at the doors to bridge the gap between the carbody and the platform.

Adams_Umass_Boston wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:06 pmCRRC will hope they will not to look to bad. Money has a way of both ruffling and smoothing feathers.

With CRRC being a Chinese state-owned organization, I’m not at all sure that they care enough to really make things right in this contract. MBTA and Massachusetts have far, far more to lose than CRRC.

What has the present governator, and former attorney general, been doing for the MBTA regarding contract enforcement?? Oh, and because of inflation, buying a new subway car is going to be at least double the cost. Did the MBTA actually turn down federal money to buy CRRC cars? No care for the MA taxpayers. As for the jobs, those will go away as soon as the contract is over...is that why they are stretching things out?

These days most every large factory in the USA is built with some sort of tax payer subsidy to ensure jobs are in one state vs another, even ones that never get used to the promised capacity. Note that at the time this contract was won by CRRC, there were no prohibitions on CRRC bidding on federally funded contracts, so CRRC was looking to establish an ability to compete in federally funded contracts, which would likely have kept this plant open well past the MBTA contracts.

wicked wrote:Not that it will happen... but if you were to reopen the bidding process, you're talking about four years at least until you see a new car, right?

I’ll take the over on that.

BandA wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:01 amDid the MBTA actually turn down federal money to buy CRRC cars? No care for the MA taxpayers. As for the jobs, those will go away as soon as the contract is over...is that why they are stretching things out?

The line from the Patrick administration was that the factory would bring much-needed jobs to western Mass. and that it would remain after the MBTA's order. At this point, that seems unlikely and the jobs will be gone anyway.

A note about the timeline of the green line comparison: The 20 Type 7.5s (3700s) were supposed to be 50+ to replace the Boeings but the order was truncated and low floor cars were ordered instead. That they were delivered in '97 and the Type 8s first showed up in '98 demonstrates the 8s were ordered before the 3700s showed up. The Amerail rebuild of the Boeings (which took place before I was old enough to pay attention) was likely intended as a stopgap until the new 7s came, but ended up being a much longer band-aid thanks to Breda being Breda.

Tying this all in... Learning from the past would be exactly what jwhite said... Give the 44 year old cars without so much as a new coat of paint the rebuild they deserved 20 years ago to keep the line at reasonable headways while we wait for a responsible bidder to build us some cars.

I hate to say it, but this is another example of how time and time again the MBTA Board of Directors gets suckered in by a great sales pitch from an unproven company, and then said company fails to deliver what they say. We saw it with the Boeing LRVs, we saw it with the Type 8s, we saw it with the Rocla concrete tie debacle, and now we see it again with the CRRC cars. I will give the BOD some benefit of the doubt here, but this shows how they have to be very careful in the future. Luckily after the Breda debacle with the Type 8s, they got it right with the Blue Line as they went with Siemens over a cheaper bid from Breda. The Blue line trains had some teething issues but the cars seem reliable. I haven't heard too many bad things about the Type 9s.

With the Type 10 contract going out to bid, and we all know the challenges of getting a reliable LRV for the Green Line given the infastructure, this is one the MBTA BOD has to get right.

How the CRRC debacle is resolved is anyone's guess. The fact that CRRC is losing subcontractors because they won't pay them is troubling, and it makes you wonder if CRRC is in a good place financially to even deliver. If this was any other company, I would be worried if they would even last, but there is no way the CCP is going to let this company go under since Xi does not need any more black eyes. But it is something to worry about and if CRRC actually doesn't last, how does the MBTA actually go about the much needed fleet replacement?

The Type 10 bid has already been awarded, and it went to CAF.

With Boeing, MBTA wasn't given a choice. They had chosen a Düwag design to be purchased with Federal funds, but the Nixon administration nixed it and forced them to purchase the Boeing LRVs (the Nixon policy eventually got codified as the "Buy American Act".

apodino wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:56 pmBut it is something to worry about and if CRRC actually doesn't last, how does the MBTA actually go about the much needed fleet replacement?

I wouldn't be too worried about CRRC's long-term financial outlook. Their operations in China dwarf all the railcar factories in the US combined. My understanding is that their failure to pay subcontractors here in the US is due to the Springfield managers not filing invoices properly, rather than any lack of funds.

RandallW wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:53 pm With Boeing, MBTA wasn't given a choice. They had chosen a Düwag design to be purchased with Federal funds, but the Nixon administration nixed it and forced them to purchase the Boeing LRVs (the Nixon policy eventually got codified as the "Buy American Act".

Also Boeing was riding high in the early 70s with the transatlantic marvel, the 747 and the lunar rover. If a
company could vehicles for the moon and the 747, it seemed it could do anything, even rail transit.

CRRC is not doing well in other places either: https://www.railwaygazette.com/traction ... 14.article

I'm wondering if China's "Zero COVID" policy ruined the company's management capabilities.

When the T signed the contract with CSR, they knew that it was government owned, controlled by the Chinese Communist Party, that China was engaging in human rights violations, that China was working to undermine US companies through espionage and monopolization of markets. Massachusetts government did not care, they just wanted the 250-350 union jobs in Springfield.

The MBTA contracted with Hyundai-Rotem, an experienced Korean manufacturer, to deliver Commuter Rail coaches from their new US factory (actually the old Budd factory). ...due to chronic delays, shoddy workmanship, material shortage, only 4 cars had been delivered by the end of 2012. On December 21, 2012, the MBTA sent a letter to Hyundai Rotem threatening to cancel the contract if a solution is not soon reached. So then the MBTA under the Deval Patrick administration turned around and in 2014 made EXACT SAME MISTAKE ordering orange and red cars from CSR.

Ten years and one day later, the T sent a letter to CRRC: “Given the breadth, number and age of chronic quality issues that have remained unresolved, it becomes abundantly clear that CRRC MA’s Management has completely abandoned its core responsibility and commitment to lead, monitor, mentor, and support quality management … functions within CRRC MA,” DeVitto wrote in the letter, obtained by The Boston Globe.