#14 Orange Line Cars 1400-1551 (From Red/Orange Procurement discussion)

They did not even have enough trains for the normal pre-Covid weekday schedule before the latest arcing axle problem that took some trains out of service. "They" includes agencies that certify the cars for use as well as those that maintain the cars for use.

Who was around and following the T back around 1976? Were there actually a few days, as reported in some news reports, when there were fewer than 50 operable cars (PCCs, each about 2/3 the size of one of today's cars) about the entire Green Line? (Supposedly they were all assigned to Riverside with bustitution of the other branches.) Snow and ice were blamed for the large number of breakdowns and out of service cars. Are we today repeating the history of not putting more effort into keeping older equipment operating just in case newer equipment (Boeing cars back then) not being ready for use when expected?

Yes, there was a shortage of PCCs after some snow storms disabled many of them, enough to rush the LRVs into service without proper testing and the riders loved them as they were new. The Boeings had been predicted to be the savior of the Green Line and maintenance of PCCs was kept to minimal levels. Also contributing was a common practice of not re-installing the motor controller covers after servicing, allowing crap to enter and cause electrical and mechanical problems and no heat. Some lines were temporarily busituted to allow for service to catch up fixing disabled cars. After the Boeings had been running for awhile and their problems started to show, was the T serious about trying to service the PCCs and started the first rebuild program in the late 70s with 3076. It became the most reliable service vehicle on the Green, with like new availability records.

I was in college in this area in 1976. I don't remember s lot of service problems on the T. The sign at Harvard Square said "8 Minutes to Park Street", and the fare was only a quarter. About half of the Red Line cars were cars I still see running today; the other half were 1400-series cars that look to have been built in the early sixties. The Blue Line was still running some 1920s-vintage cars. The Green Line was all PCC; I don't think the Boeing LRVs had showed up yet.

LRVs entered service at end of December 1976.

rethcir wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:05 pm So how exactly does the commonwealth dig itself out of this quagmire? The old trains need to go. Can’t really cut bait because there’s no fallback plan. Billions in sunk costs and local jobs in Springfield on the line.

Let us hope CRRC just does not just walk away leaving its US managers holding the bag of criminal prosecutions and bankruptcy?

The arcing ground cable problem may be a design flaw according to Herald article:

https://www.bostonherald.com/2023/01/19 ... l-failure/

Sounds like the Type 8 over again - which took some nine years for first delivery (1998) until the last ten cars
were assembled from leftover shells and parts stock in late 2007, even to the point there were threats to cancel
the order and accept only cars already built. In the end, the contract was finished with a settlement, leaving
the outstanding cars as spare shells.

Could there be "force majeure" events that would extend the deadlines for delivery and delay the imposition of the 500 dollar per day penalty? Such as parts sitting in container ships outside a U.S. port waiting for unloading and transferring to trucks or trains?

If U.S. suppliers had difficulty delivering parts then would CRRC have the right to substitute foreign made parts that they could obtain more quickly?

Disney Guy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:24 am If U.S. suppliers had difficulty delivering parts then would CRRC have the right to substitute foreign made parts that they could obtain more quickly?

Would require a Buy America Act waiver under exceptional circumstances if a federally funded contract.
Otherwise, there would probably be not major issues, unless there is a minimum quota for in-state
domestic content (such as the MTA with NYS content).

Not that it will happen... but if you were to reopen the bidding process, you're talking about four years at least until you see a new car, right?

R36 Combine Coach wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:16 pm Would require a Buy America Act waiver under exceptional circumstances if a federally funded contract.

The MBTA/CRRC contract was not federally funded (hence the stipulation that the trains be assembled in Massachusetts,) so that's not a concern here.
However, from the earlier article about problems at the CRRC factory in Springfield, it sounds more like the biggest problems are with the assembly and lack of QA in the Springfield facility, so I'm not sure that finding alternate suppliers for components will solve any of the problems with this contract.

I recall that the CRRC order was entirely state funded, and several years later the US Congress passed a law prohibiting federal funding to go to Chinese government-backed industries like CRRC. Whether any of that would preempt Buy American is a question for the lawyers.

The T is rather painted into a corner. and not for the first time. Their recourse for the Orange Line, perhaps, could be "Look, we have 74 cars on property. That's it, cancel the remainder and we continue to operate a reduced service while instituting an immediate heavy overhaul of the remaining 01200 fleet and searching for a new manufacturer for a smaller number of new cars to eventually replace the 01200s and operate them alongside the truncated CRRC fleet." That is analogous to what the MBTA did in the 1980s when it was clear that the Boeing LRV wasn't going to be the full future of the Green Line and they had to start a heavy rebuild of the remaining PCC fleet as well as begin procurement of the Type 7s many years earlier than they might otherwise have. It's also not far off the Type 8 debacle, which required a heavy overhaul of the remnant LRV fleet as well as 20 new Type 7s to get out from under.

On the Red Line side of things, it could be even uglier. Only 12 CRRCs delivered thus far and only ten of those accepted. Tell CRRC to hit the bricks, and you've not much to work with, so how do you take a third of the fleet which is over fifty years old, and the rest of the fleet which is of varying age and none under 25 years old, and try to maintain acceptable service while breathing enough life into them to survive until a new replacement order is placed and delivered?

And never mind how to pay for all of the above?

The MBTA has, unfortunately, hitched its wagon pretty tight to CRRC. They don't have many options here.

Two lessons that apparently need to be learned and relearned constantly - first, the lowest bidder is almost never the best product. and second, if it sounds too good to be true even to the consultants, it definitely is too good to be true. Oh, and a third lesson, perhaps more important than the first two - LEARN FROM PAST MISTAKES AND DON'T KEEP REPEATING THEM.

jwhite07 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:01 pmIt's also not far off the Type 8 debacle, which required a heavy overhaul of the remnant LRV fleet as well as 20 new Type 7s to get out from under.

The Boeing overhaul and second Type 7 order were both completed several years before the first Type 8 was delivered. The issues with the Type 8s did keep the overhauled Boeings around for years longer than they would have been otherwise.

jwhite07 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:01 pm On the Red Line side of things, it could be even uglier. Only 12 CRRCs delivered thus far and only ten of those accepted.

They could send those over to the Orange line since they are the same cars.

However, things will work out. Neither side wants to be a loser in this and there is to much money at stake. The T will get something out of this and CRRC will hope they will not to look to bad. Money has a way of both ruffling and smoothing feathers.

I still think they should have gone with Siemens. The one on the blue have been very reliable.