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  • Forbes Article - Amtrak Expansion Will Increase Shipping Costs

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1603895  by rohr turbo
 
Can anyone enlighten me how the private railroads managed to run both passenger and freight just fine back in the day (40s-50s...) if it is suddenly so difficult today? There were many times more passenger trains, probably running similar or faster schedules, more local freights, more stations, more freight customers... and it was all done without computers and mostly profitably!

Not to mention hand-thrown switches, remote towers, crude communication methods, little centralization...
Last edited by rohr turbo on Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #1603898  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Olesen, that plan is FLUID. Passenger train schedules are not - unless of course the passenger train operator allows them to become so.

As I understand things, Saint Elwood preached to his disciples that they will use computers to set and constantly update their operating plan. A skilled AGREEMENT Train Dispatcher can do same using his years of experience. But such can only go so far as his shift and his territory.
 #1603902  by rcthompson04
 
rohr turbo wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:09 pm Can anyone enlighten me how the private railroads managed to run both passenger and freight just fine back in the day (40s-50s...) if it is suddenly so difficult today? There were many times more passenger trains, probably running similar or faster schedules, more local freights, more stations, more freight customers... and it was all done without computers and mostly profitably!

Not to mention hand-thrown switches, remote towers, crude communication methods, little centralization...
Many of them went broke running such arrangements!

As someone whose worked in large organizations in other industries the easiest way to throw off a well run machine is one or two exceptions to the norm. Running 2 passenger trains at a specific time each day might not sound like a lot, but when your whole process is not built on the same operational expectations it creates a bunch of deviations to the normal progress.
 #1603961  by Railjunkie
 
So let me get this straight Amtrak is the root cause of all the issues on the freight side of things because it runs on a somewhat fixed schedule. A schedule that is agreed upon by the carrier and knows the slot of said train or trains on their railroad. Yet they bitch and complain when Amtrak is late. Sometimes its Amtrak's fault sometimes it is the carriers fault. I don't mind following a 60mph COFC for 130 miles. Showing up on time and getting stuck behind a train with a failed marker and restricted to 30mph for the same distance and have nothing pass you in the opposite direction seems to me like getting screwed. If I'm late I realize it very well be my turn in the barrel so I sit back and take whats coming if they move me by chance that's great.

The problem with PSR is like everything else it works on paper or in the numerous computer simulations that are run assuming everyday is 75 degrees and not a cloud in the sky. However in the real world with real problems, stuff breaks due to lack of maintenance physical plant issues and mother nature herself. Trying to run a 16000ft or longer train in -20 degree weather is a recipe for failure.
 #1603969  by Vincent
 
Amtrak's growth plans are focused on creating more high-speed, high frequency, state-supported corridors, not increasing frequencies on the LD network. Amtrak currently has access to a pretty large pile of money that can be used to improve the rights-of-way that those corridor services will be using.

I've been riding the Cascades corridor regularly for the last 25 years and I have seen over $1 billion invested in the corridor. I don't think BNSF can complain that the additional Amtrak and Sound Transit trains have stifled their freight operations. On the contrary, BNSF has a much more modern and fluid freight operation in the Pacific Northwest thanks to the significant taxpayer subsidies for passenger trains.

WA, VA and IL (and others) seem to have had success working with the host roads and building their corridors. But other host roads and local state governments haven't been as motivated to build the passenger train corridors. I'm sure there are valid reasons for the reluctance, but I wish I knew what the secret formula for success is.
 #1603979  by Matt Johnson
 
Looking at Amtrak's 2035 wish list map, there are a few lines that would have zero freight impact (such as Lackawanna Cutoff restoration for Scranton service) and some that would likely have major impact (such as multiple frequencies on a new Dallas - Houston service). Some are in between. I can't imagine that extending the Heartland Flyer from Oklahoma City to Newtown, KS will have a major impact on freight scheduling.
 #1603989  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Vincent, you do have a point.

Like it or not, fossil fuels have only one way to go as the world becomes more environmentally conscious.

And there will go two sources of traffic for which there are no reasonable and practical alternatives - coal and fracking supplies - and the product - crude as well.

All that will be left, conducive to a Precision Railroading model will be products of agriculture.

The movement of Containers with handling time "in the ballpark" with highway transport will require "fluid" railroads, which are not conducive to any kind of PSR. While I don't think such is a cue for a passenger train rennaissce, it does mean they could be more expediently handled over the Class I system.
 #1604006  by STrRedWolf
 
This is sounding more and more like an opinion piece.
Ike BrannonContributor
Ike Brannon is a senior fellow at the Jack Kemp Foundation
An outside contributor. This is definitely an opinion piece, and should be taken for what it is worth: just an opinion, nothing more, nothing less...

...what is this Jack Kemp Foundation...
Jack Kemp was also a fierce advocate for the power of ideas, and especially for what he called The American Idea: The Declaration of Independence applies to every individual; everyone should have the same opportunity to rise as high as their talents and efforts can carry them; and while people move ahead, we should endeavor to leave no one behind.
... Mr. Brannon seems not to be advocating the American Idea here in this article. One can argue that Amtrak expansion would reach more people that "were left behind." I do not think the intent of this article is within the ideals of the foundation this author is writing on behalf of.

I have more reason to ignore this opinion piece as a waste of recycled electrons.
 #1604116  by R36 Combine Coach
 
Matt Johnson wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:37 pm Looking at Amtrak's 2035 wish list map, there are a few lines that would have zero freight impact (such as Lackawanna Cutoff restoration for Scranton service).
There's still DL freight west of the Water Gap. NJT has already stated no freight is expected on the Cutoff (likely
with the Boonton Line severed since 1963 and the Greenwood Lake connection to Croxton severed with WR and
DB).

Although I could see the Cutoff for DRRV/D&D moves between Dover and Scranton with D&H/CP interchange (or interchanges with DL).
 #1604135  by eolesen
 
ConstanceR46 wrote:america wasn't too big for passenger rail 70 years ago and china, which is even larger than us, can do it. this is the same tired fallacy trotted out by think tanks that just Hate Trains
Well, you might like trains, but when well over 98% of long and medium distance travel is taking place by other means, it's pretty clear people don't voluntarily choose train travel when other options are available... and it's been that way for over 60 years.

70 years ago, they didn't have as many options.

China as an authoritarian state owns the airlines, airports, buses and rail lines. They decide what options people can have.

Feel free to move there if you want all those decisions made for you.

I spent six months living in China and seeing their infrastructure up close. If I never return, that would be fine with me.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

 #1604145  by scratchyX1
 
ConstanceR46 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:30 am america wasn't too big for passenger rail 70 years ago and china, which is even larger than us, can do it. this is the same tired fallacy trotted out by think tanks that just Hate Trains
Ok, Then, morraco, egypt, isreal, india, the list goes on.
and germany has both hsr and the autobahn.