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  • What would happen if the Freehold & Jamesburg RR was never pulled up?

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey

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 #1592521  by JohnFromJersey
 
I'm quite aware that this is a far-fetched "what if" since the tracks were pulled out almost 60 years ago now, but I've always what would have happened if the tracks between Farmingdale and Sea Girt were not pulled up by the PRR in our timeline. I heard a rumor that they pulled up the tracks hastier than usual because a shortline planned to use them for tourist purposes, and the ROW quickly followed suit when there was a campaign to put a bike path there

Let's say the tracks from Farmingdale - Sea Girt, or at least the ROW, remained in place until when Penn Central became Conrail, and no bike path ever took place. Would NJT utilize this route for an East-West connection to Trenton and Philly from the shore? Or were they always going to be torn up, no matter who did so?
 #1592558  by GSC
 
When first planned, the Pine Creek RR of Allaire was to follow the ROW side-by-side eastward up to almost the golf course, and create a loop return. After the Pennsy took up the rails, there was talk of Pine Creek gaining the ROW. It never happened, obviously. Later, a water main was buried along the ROW and it became a bike and walking path right after.

The F&JA had one customer left on the line, Monmouth Box in Allenwood, that received maybe a boxcar every week or two. Not much traffic potential.

The F&JA did serve as an escape route in 1946 when both the Matawan and Barnegat trestles burned. CNJ and PRR hastily put together a shared plan where both companies would use whatever lines were available. CNJ used the line from Sea Girt to Freehold, PRR used the CNJ Southern Division and Freehold Branch to get around the obstacles in an amazing example of cooperation between competing lines. Both lines used the Camden & Amboy between Jamesburg and South Amboy.

Also, in maybe two or three examples, the Blue Comet ran down the NY&LB to Sea Girt and over to Farmingdale to get around construction projects.

Although the line was pulled up quickly, I don't feel there was much potential to keep the F&JA intact from Sea Girt to Farmingdale, and later to Freehold. An escape route perhaps, it would've been useful after Hurricane Sandy when the NY&LB was all but shut down. Today's freights would benefit from Jamesburg to Farmingdale to keep them off NJT's NY&LB / NJCL.

Once upon a time, Pennsy planned to double track the F&JA due to traffic issues. Sure would like to see that kind of traffic today! As it was, the line had several passing sidings for trains to get around each other.

The Doodlebug ran on that portion of the F&JA until 1964. On a family drive, my dad enjoyed chasing trains and we followed a Pennsy freight (An SW-something with two boxcars and a caboose) from Sea Girt to Freehold. The crew got a kick out of waving to that kid in the car (me) at every crossing.

An east-west high-speed line would've been great to have, but the PRR line from Seaside through Toms River and Whiting westward was more due west than the F&JA, which went sort of northwest to Jamesburg and Monmouth Jct.

Ah the what-ifs!
 #1592562  by JohnFromJersey
 
GSC wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:18 pm When first planned, the Pine Creek RR of Allaire was to follow the ROW side-by-side eastward up to almost the golf course, and create a loop return. After the Pennsy took up the rails, there was talk of Pine Creek gaining the ROW. It never happened, obviously. Later, a water main was buried along the ROW and it became a bike and walking path right after.

The F&JA had one customer left on the line, Monmouth Box in Allenwood, that received maybe a boxcar every week or two. Not much traffic potential.

The F&JA did serve as an escape route in 1946 when both the Matawan and Barnegat trestles burned. CNJ and PRR hastily put together a shared plan where both companies would use whatever lines were available. CNJ used the line from Sea Girt to Freehold, PRR used the CNJ Southern Division and Freehold Branch to get around the obstacles in an amazing example of cooperation between competing lines. Both lines used the Camden & Amboy between Jamesburg and South Amboy.

Also, in maybe two or three examples, the Blue Comet ran down the NY&LB to Sea Girt and over to Farmingdale to get around construction projects.

Although the line was pulled up quickly, I don't feel there was much potential to keep the F&JA intact from Sea Girt to Farmingdale, and later to Freehold. An escape route perhaps, it would've been useful after Hurricane Sandy when the NY&LB was all but shut down. Today's freights would benefit from Jamesburg to Farmingdale to keep them off NJT's NY&LB / NJCL.

Once upon a time, Pennsy planned to double track the F&JA due to traffic issues. Sure would like to see that kind of traffic today! As it was, the line had several passing sidings for trains to get around each other.

The Doodlebug ran on that portion of the F&JA until 1964. On a family drive, my dad enjoyed chasing trains and we followed a Pennsy freight (An SW-something with two boxcars and a caboose) from Sea Girt to Freehold. The crew got a kick out of waving to that kid in the car (me) at every crossing.

An east-west high-speed line would've been great to have, but the PRR line from Seaside through Toms River and Whiting westward was more due west than the F&JA, which went sort of northwest to Jamesburg and Monmouth Jct.

Ah the what-ifs!
Hm. I wonder what stopped Pine Creek from getting the ROW? I have to say that the Farmingdale-Sea Girt rails getting torn up was a great example of why railbanking ROWs is good practice. Maybe towards the end of its life, it had no usage, but if it were hypothetically still intact today, I would say it would be a pretty busy NJT line. NJRT 33 and Interstate 195 are nightmares to drive on during rush hour, especially during summer months, and this line ran parallel to both of them.

The PRR's Toms River to Seaside Line was far longer and probably would have less potential for traffic. Once you head West of Toms River towards Philly, there are no potential passenger or freight customers, for miles. At least with a Jamesburg-Sea Girt route, you have tons of freight and passenger potential along the entire route.
 #1592643  by R&DB
 
John from Jersey wrote:
The PRR's Toms River to Seaside Line was far longer and probably would have less potential for traffic. Once you head West of Toms River towards Philly, there are no potential passenger or freight customers, for miles. At least with a Jamesburg-Sea Girt route, you have tons of freight and passenger potential along the entire route.
You have to understand that line was built to get Philly vacationers to the Jersey shore, so it was very direct and served all the shore towns from Seaside up to Long Branch. It was actually faster than the F&JA route as it didn't have to go through Monmouth Jct and stop at all the Monmouth inland towns. There wasn't much commuter traffic buttherewas some. (My grandfather was one, Ortley Beach - Philly for about 5 years in the 1920s)
 #1592678  by JohnFromJersey
 
R&DB wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:41 am You have to understand that line was built to get Philly vacationers to the Jersey shore, so it was very direct and served all the shore towns from Seaside up to Long Branch. It was actually faster than the F&JA route as it didn't have to go through Monmouth Jct and stop at all the Monmouth inland towns.
I meant in the context of which route, if still around today, would have the potential for more riders, especially year-round riders. The P&LB route was indeed more direct between Philly and Shore Points (as well as offered more Shore Points stops), however, the year-round potential would be rather poor. AFAIK, the line traveled through a lot of rural and protected woodlands, so there wouldn't be much commuter potential between Philly/its immediate areas and the shore.

The F&JA would still be a Philly-Shore Points route (as it parallels 195 and 33 pretty damn close), albeit not as fast, but it would have more rider potential because of the towns it goes through.

That being said, the ROW of the P&LB until Toms River is still very much intact, but getting to Seaside and then Bay Head would be impossible. Farmingdale-Sea Girt would be far less of a headache to do, but either won't be done in a million years unless gas reaches $10 a gallon with all this nonsense going on in the world.
R&DB wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:41 am There wasn't much commuter traffic but there was some. (My grandfather was one, Ortley Beach - Philly for about 5 years in the 1920s)
I feel like 'commuting' wasn't much of a thing until recently. Most people did not live too far from their places of work until between the 1950s-1980s (and beyond), which ironically caused the need for the revival of passenger rail not too long after it collapsed. All those highways couldn't handle all those people needing travel to work in the cities they left for the suburbs as well as initially thought
 #1592705  by GSC
 
Pine Creek getting the ROW was tied up in legal issues. The original plan called for Pine Creek to run right next to the PRR line, as the area in question once had a long passing siding. Two-track ROW all the way, including a bridge. When the PRR tore their line up, the wheels started to turn for Pine Creek to get the line. But first, there was an issue with the power company that had co-use of the ROW, and later, plans for a water main to be buried under the ROW.

There were already some issues with an independent museum corporation (Pine Creek had to incorporate as a non-profit (NJ Museum of Transportation Inc) before they would be allowed to locate in a state park) moving into a state-run park, something new that had never been done before. Since the non-profit Allaire Village was already there (Before Allaire became a state park) and operating, it streamlined the allowance of the railroad to move in. Mutual attractions: The Village, the railroad, and the park itself.

Some early board members of NJMT had some pull in Trenton, getting Pine Creek into the park in the first place, and were the same people who tried for the Pennsy ROW. Details could fill a few pages, but suffice it to say that it became pretty much , "No. You can't have it. We have other plans for it".
 #1592706  by GSC
 
GSC wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:27 pm Pine Creek getting the ROW was tied up in legal issues. The original plan called for Pine Creek to run right next to the PRR line, as the area in question once had a long passing siding. Two-track ROW all the way, including a bridge. When the PRR tore their line up, the wheels started to turn for Pine Creek to get the line. But first, there was an issue with the power company (JCP&L) that had co-use of the ROW, and bought the ROW. Later, plans for a water main to be buried under the ROW.

There were already some issues with an independent museum corporation (Pine Creek had to incorporate as a non-profit (NJ Museum of Transportation Inc) before they would be allowed to locate in a state park) moving into a state-run park, something new that had never been done before. Since the non-profit Allaire Village was already there (Before Allaire became a state park) and operating, it streamlined the allowance of the railroad to move in. Mutual attractions: The Village, the railroad, and the park itself.

Some early board members of NJMT had some pull in Trenton, getting Pine Creek into the park in the first place, and were the same people who tried for the Pennsy ROW. Details could fill a few pages, but suffice it to say that it became pretty much , "No. You can't have it. We have other plans for it".
 #1592707  by GSC
 
The portion between Farmingdale and Sea Girt, originally chartered as the Farmingdale and Squan Village RR in 1867, was consolidated into the Freehold & Jamesburg Agricultural RR in 1879, along with the Squankum Marl RR and the original 1853 F&JA between Freehold and Jamesburg. The railroad did have an Allaire station. The station was established for shipping farm products to New York and Philadelphia. Howell Works (Allaire Village) had practically ceased operations by 1847 and was all but abandoned by 1850. There was no freight rail service to the iron making factory town by then, just the named station and a passing siding (called the "milk siding" in some references). The village shut down before the railroad got there. The F&JA connected at Sea Girt to what became the NY & Long Branch RR in 1876.
 #1592709  by JohnFromJersey
 
GSC wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:27 pm Pine Creek getting the ROW was tied up in legal issues. The original plan called for Pine Creek to run right next to the PRR line, as the area in question once had a long passing siding. Two-track ROW all the way, including a bridge. When the PRR tore their line up, the wheels started to turn for Pine Creek to get the line. But first, there was an issue with the power company that had co-use of the ROW, and later, plans for a water main to be buried under the ROW.

There were already some issues with an independent museum corporation (Pine Creek had to incorporate as a non-profit (NJ Museum of Transportation Inc) before they would be allowed to locate in a state park) moving into a state-run park, something new that had never been done before. Since the non-profit Allaire Village was already there (Before Allaire became a state park) and operating, it streamlined the allowance of the railroad to move in. Mutual attractions: The Village, the railroad, and the park itself.

Some early board members of NJMT had some pull in Trenton, getting Pine Creek into the park in the first place, and were the same people who tried for the Pennsy ROW. Details could fill a few pages, but suffice it to say that it became pretty much , "No. You can't have it. We have other plans for it".
In an alternative universe, say they got the ROW or were able to get a piece of the pie. Would NJT try to seize it back from them at some point for commuter service?

I also did not know that the Iron Works was long gone when the railroad came through. Wikipedia and some other sources say that the railroad extensively served it
 #1592746  by NY&LB
 
Let's look back in history a bit:

June 1910 the PRR ran the following
Phila - Long Branch via Monmouth Junction
9 weekday trains, fastest 2 hr 44min

Camden (ferry from Phila) - Long Branch via Seaside Park
5 weekday trains, fastest 2 hr 29 min

July 1936 the PRR ran the following
Phila - Long Branch via Monmouth Junction
9 weekday trains, fastest 2 hr 13 min

Camden (ferry from Phila) - Long Branch via Seaside Park
6 weekday trains, fastest 2 hr 35 min

In 1958 down to ONE train via Monmouth Junction 2 hr 45 min
 #1592748  by GSC
 
[/quote]

In an alternative universe, say they got the ROW or were able to get a piece of the pie. Would NJT try to seize it back from them at some point for commuter service?

I also did not know that the Iron Works was long gone when the railroad came through. Wikipedia and some other sources say that the railroad extensively served it
[/quote]

It is a common misunderstanding that Howell Works was served by the railroad. A few people lived in the village after 1850 but it was otherwise abandoned. Better quality iron ore was found in North Jersey and Pennsylvania, putting the local bog iron industry out of business. The company shut down and moved operations to New York. The Allaire station served local farms mostly.

If Pine Creek had acquired the ROW, the planned extension was not even a mile long. East to the golf course was the end. Maybe NJT would try to take the ROW back if traffic potentials were there, but I think of how many years the MOM has languished. Years of studies and delays. I wouldn't sweat NJT being in a hurry to extend along the F&JA between Sea Girt and Farmingdale.

The Doodlebug ran between Red Bank (where it tied up each evening) down the NY&LB to Sea Girt, then the F&JA west to Trenton, mainly for "school bus" use to the Catholic schools in Trenton. Once schools opened in Monmouth County, there was no use for the train service. I knew trainman Frank Riddle, who worked the 'Bug til the end, and he said there was maybe three or four commuters who took the train other than the students on a regular basis. Overhead to run the Doodlebug with a three-man crew, taxes on the ROW, and other costs spelled the quick end of the line. Once a week, if that, of freight service to Monmouth Box in Allenwood wasn't enough to keep things running. Any interchange freight between CNJ and PRR was handled at Farmingdale instead of Sea Girt. There really wasn't any reason to keep the F&JA in place between Sea Girt and Farmingdale. There was a customer in F'dale who received hoppers of coal east of CNJ and served across the diamond crossing, but once that service ended, the diamond and what track was left was pulled. Unit trains of jetty rocks were the last loads coming across from Kingston to Sea Girt and Spring Lake, and by 1964, it was all over. (I lived a block from Lewis Lumber in Spring Lake, where the rocks were unloaded. Seeing somewhat rare PRR freights coming this far east on the F&JA was a treat).

Fond memories. Glad I was there to see it.
 #1592759  by JohnFromJersey
 
GSC wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:45 pm It is a common misunderstanding that Howell Works was served by the railroad. A few people lived in the village after 1850 but it was otherwise abandoned. Better quality iron ore was found in North Jersey and Pennsylvania, putting the local bog iron industry out of business. The company shut down and moved operations to New York. The Allaire station served local farms mostly.

If Pine Creek had acquired the ROW, the planned extension was not even a mile long. East to the golf course was the end. Maybe NJT would try to take the ROW back if traffic potentials were there, but I think of how many years the MOM has languished. Years of studies and delays. I wouldn't sweat NJT being in a hurry to extend along the F&JA between Sea Girt and Farmingdale.

The Doodlebug ran between Red Bank (where it tied up each evening) down the NY&LB to Sea Girt, then the F&JA west to Trenton, mainly for "school bus" use to the Catholic schools in Trenton. Once schools opened in Monmouth County, there was no use for the train service. I knew trainman Frank Riddle, who worked the 'Bug til the end, and he said there was maybe three or four commuters who took the train other than the students on a regular basis. Overhead to run the Doodlebug with a three-man crew, taxes on the ROW, and other costs spelled the quick end of the line. Once a week, if that, of freight service to Monmouth Box in Allenwood wasn't enough to keep things running. Any interchange freight between CNJ and PRR was handled at Farmingdale instead of Sea Girt. There really wasn't any reason to keep the F&JA in place between Sea Girt and Farmingdale. There was a customer in F'dale who received hoppers of coal east of CNJ and served across the diamond crossing, but once that service ended, the diamond and what track was left was pulled. Unit trains of jetty rocks were the last loads coming across from Kingston to Sea Girt and Spring Lake, and by 1964, it was all over. (I lived a block from Lewis Lumber in Spring Lake, where the rocks were unloaded. Seeing somewhat rare PRR freights coming this far east on the F&JA was a treat).

Fond memories. Glad I was there to see it.
Are railroads still taxed on ROW???? If so, a bit unfair to tax them on that + their income + whatever else when the highways are free of taxes and free for use...
 #1592834  by GSC
 
Everything is taxed in one way or another. Roads are taxed by per-gallon fuel taxes. Railroad ROWs are taxed like any other real estate. Out-of-service lines and abandonments give railroads a loophole to either save on or eliminate property taxes. As far as highway use taxes, trucks must pay for the miles they run in each state. If you use say 20 gallons of fuel driving 100 miles, the tax laws say you must buy 20 gallons in that state. Saving by buying cheap fuel in Maryland doesn't help, as you still owe taxes on the fuel your truck uses in each state, no matter where you bought it. Yet another paperwork debacle trucking companies and owner-operators must deal with (I was an owner-operator - been there, done that) Roads ain't free. Every state charges a road tax on every gallon you buy. (You can deduct these taxes if you fill up your boat at a highway gas station, or you operate a landscaping business and buy gas for your machine, technically a "non-use of highway miles", but that's more paperwork at the end of the year) They don't make it easy.