Amtrak in Virginia updates (and other transportation)

kitchin wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:44 am North Carolina has owned Raleigh - Charlotte since the mid-1800's, but private railroad has rights and that corridor will remain mixed pax-freight even with SEHSR I believe.

I could not resist a small and off topic nit-pick, my apologies:

The NCRR corridor is 200 ft wide from Raleigh to Charlotte so there is plenty of room to add dedicated passenger tracks. That said, NCDOT has shown no signs of being willing to pay the incremental maintenance costs for Class 6 operations on the existing track (something they built with the ARRA funds west of Greensboro), let alone the cost of operating separate tracks. So I think you are correct about mixed traffic, but higher speeds and dedicated track are certainly possible. The determining factor is what happens from Charlotte to Atlanta, the Greenfield, true-HSR, route was selected as the preferred alternative. If a miracle happens and those tracks are built then building HSR between Charlotte and Richmond (all state-owned ROW) begins to make sense.

More realistically we are a decade(?) away from commuter rail on the Raleigh-Durham section of the NCRR (possibly as far west as Burlington and as far east as Selma) and perhaps 20 years away from commuter rail from Charlotte-Gateway to Salisbury. This is going to clog up the NCRR unless proper station sidings are built.

I agree that the brand new Newport News station will be a ways from the Downtown Newport News area. While the present location is closer, it's not really in the best part of town as in crime, I think. It would be nice when the new station opens up, people would have bus connections not only to Norfolk but other parts of Newport News plus Hampton. Hopefully when the station moves, that will reduce tardiness issues with the Amtrak trains arriving and departing NPN.

The location of the Norfolk Amtrak station is fine. It's extremely close to downtown with a light rail station very close by for those people who don't want to walk after getting off their Amtrak train. There are probably a few buses that serve both the Amtrak station and Downtown Norfolk. It would be nice though if the Tide actually extended closer the main part of Virginia Beach. It would be nice to have the ferry to Portsmouth start out at the Amtrak station not just for when a baseball game is being played but most of the time there isn't a game in play.

The Ashland Station is as good as you can get in Ashland. It's right in the downtown area. The right of way isn't going anywhere in Downtown Ashland. In fact, it will probably remain one of the slowest stretches of the former RF&P permanently.

Charlottesville Station is in a great location-right in Downtown CVS. I don't know the local bus system down there. However, the station itself should be expanded. I believe that the waiting room is a little too small. If the Cardinal ever goes to a daily operation plus an additional Northeast Regional would be added, than yes, that means more people will use Charlottesville Station. It would also be nice if there was an opposite side platform added on the Southern Main. I would also love to see the Cardinal be able to use the Southern Main into CVS rather than the Buckingham Branch-this would reduce travel time for the Cardinal. That would mean having to build a connecting track from the Southern Main to the Buckingham Branch as there is presently only a diamond in CVS where the two lines intersect.

I agree about the station in Roanoke-right in the heart of one of the most beautiful downtown areas there. There are probably many car rental places very close by for those people who want to rent a car to visit the Blue Ridge Mountains. Yes, ridership at Roanoke Station has been extremely strong!

As for future new stations, it would be nice to have a station added on the Norfolk NER in Suffolk.

On a related topic, we have all heard by now that republican Glenn Youngkin has won the Virginia governors race. Since passenger rail has been a bipartisan affair in VA, what are Mr. Youngkin's views on this topic? Will he continue with the bipartisan course or will he seek a different path?

Alex M wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:22 pm On a related topic, we have all heard by now that republican Glenn Youngkin has won the Virginia governors race. Since passenger rail has been a bipartisan affair in VA, what are Mr. Youngkin's views on this topic? Will he continue with the bipartisan course or will he seek a different path?

IMO, Unless Youngkin can find many many billions of dollars to expand I-95 north of Fredericksburg (money that the Biden administration is not going to pay out) then he has no choice but follow through with the existing plans to expand passenger rail. I am not a Virginia resident (I live one state South), but as a frequent through-passenger, it looks to me that passenger rail is widely embraced in Virginia.

Then again, the lesson of the past 13 years (since the ARRA grants) is that we should never underestimate the degree to which right wingers hate rail.

Does the Gov-Elect has the power of the purse here?... last I checked, the Assembly decided spending bills...

While control of the VA House of Delegates appears to have swung GOP with the election this week to at least 51-49, the Senate remains Democrat controlled 21-19. That implies to me that negotiations will dictate what priority rail projects will be getting, not the viewpoint of the Gov-Elect.



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My understanding is that the governor, like the president, proposes a budget, which then gets kicked around in the legislative branch. The Virginia legislature has a day when all the legislation passed in the Senate goes to the House of Delegates for consideration and vice versa. Committees hash it out till they have something to send to the governor. Youngkin has to work with the legislature, and they have to work with him. Virginia's subsidy for Amtrak trains was zero or close to zero for years because ticket sales covered Virginia's share, and Virginia got credit for some of the money spent on tickets from Virginia to beyond Washington. The recent capital expenditures are contracts that can't just be abrogated, and anything involving federal money incurs a commitment to the project or repaying the federal government. As noted above, passenger rail in Virginia has had bipartisan support for decades. My guess is that it will continue.

VADRPT has announced another state sponsored bus, this time starting in Bristol and hitting all the college towns along I-81 before turning to Dulles Airport and DC.
As with previous buses overlaying the Amtrak network, the Schedule is designed that its DC Area legs are either midday or contra-rush (inbound in the PM Rush, outbound after 1pm)

It is a 7 hour schedule Bristol to DC, basically comparable, and perhaps better than anything rail will achieve (at crazy-higher capital costs)

As a railfan you can read this two ways: 1) Buses will pioneer the market; prove demand 2) Buses will always be the superior mode where there's an interstate and good time-of-day slots.

Also note that this results in a twice a day schedule at Christiansburg (the future "NRV" rail market)
Northbound at 8:25am and 1:10pm (arrives WAS 5hrs later)
Southbound at 3:15pm and 6:10pm (leaves WAS 5hrs before)
For travelers starting from VaTech/Radford That beats the Amtrak pace from RNK to WAS of 5hrs because it saves the 40 Minute drive to RNK

So to me it makes sense that Christiansburg be SW Virginia's Bus-Rail Hub, and there's no reason to plunk down another $100M (or whatever NS will want) to get to Bristol, when that $ would be better spent on operating subsidies on additional buses. I'm going to say that the train's natural frequency is 2x to 4x per day, generally patterned to beat the morning and evening rush hours, and that at most other times of the day, the bus will be better at adding convenience and redundancy.

NORTHBOUND

CITY / STOP
DEPARTURE
(DAILY)
BRISTOL
Exit 5 VDOT Park and Ride Lot
11:00 AM
WYTHEVILLE
Rural King Parking Lot
12:05 PM
RADFORD
Radford University Parking Lot JJ
12:50 PM
CHRISTIANSBURG
Falling Branch Park and Ride Lot
1:10 PM
SALEM
Exit 140 VDOT Park and Ride Lot
1:40 PM
HARRISONBURG
JMU, Godwin Transit Center
3:35 PM
DULLES INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT
Curb 2A
5:20 PM
WEST FALLS CHURCH
West Falls Church Metrorail Station
5:45 PM
WASHINGTON, D.C.
Union Station Bus Deck
6:05 PM

SOUTHBOUND


CITY / STOP
DEPARTURE
(DAILY)
WASHINGTON, D.C.
Union Station Bus Deck
1:00 PM
WEST FALLS CHURCH
West Falls Church Metrorail Station
1:25 PM
DULLES INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT
Curb 2A
1:55 PM
HARRISONBURG
JMU, Godwin Transit Center
4:00 PM
SALEM
Exit 140 VDOT Park and Ride Lot
5:45 PM
CHRISTIANSBURG
Falling Branch Park and Ride Lot
6:10 PM
RADFORD
Radford University Parking Lot JJ
6:30 PM
WYTHEVILLE
Rural King Parking Lot
7:10 PM
BRISTOL
Exit 5 VDOT Park and Ride Lot
8:10 PM

I was told the new infrastructure bill will pay for the rail for the SEHSR S line upgrades/restoration (Richmond-Raleigh). Anyone hard anything more? I know the VA side is ripped up. Guessing the rail on the NC side would need to be replaced

I wonder if the eventual plan fully happens with the S line restoration and NC/SC/GA acquiring the S line down to Savannah if the silvers and auto train would shift to the S line with just the palmetto remaining on the A line to serve the eastern side - I would think the star at least would surely shift to the S line between Petersburg and Raleigh and if the Raleigh - Savannah segment saves time and becomes more a passenger line I could see them shifting the auto train and moving the half way base to Columbia.

I have heard that NCDOT does have an agreement in place with CSX to purchase the S-Line from Norlina to Sanford NC (about 40 miles South of Raleigh). My source was telling me about the possibility of commuter service from Raleigh, so I would not be surprised if NC's deal was for the S-Line tracks all the way to Hamlet.

It appears that part of the motivation behind the purchase is that CSX/Former Seaboard controls the dispatching on the NCRR/NS shared tracks between Cary and Raleigh. NS has been intransigent with Triangle area commuter rail plans, having NCDOT acquire those dispatching powers is seen as a way to lever NS into being more cooperative with Triangle Commuter Rail.

More broadly, NS could be said to be very uncooperative with accommodating the expansion of Piedmont service and with allowing for the use of the O-Line for commuter rail service north of Charlotte. Reading between the lines (IMO), NS is concerned about capacity constraints on the NCRR between Greensboro and Charlotte and is preparing to use the option of the O-Line as a replacement main as leverage in renegotiation with the NCRR.

tldr: The S-Line is a realistic possibility for passenger service through NC, but I doubt that SC will play along with improvements for passenger service.

lordsigma12345 wrote:I wonder if the eventual plan fully happens with the S line restoration and NC/SC/GA acquiring the S line down to Savannah if the silvers and auto train would shift to the S line with just the palmetto remaining on the A line to serve the eastern side - I would think the star at least would surely shift to the S line between Petersburg and Raleigh and if the Raleigh - Savannah segment saves time and becomes more a passenger line I could see them shifting the auto train and moving the half way base to Columbia.

The Silver Meteor could run to Hamlet then split off to serve Charleston on the way to Savannah. What about the Crescent changing it’s route to Charlotte from Washington via the S line. Would there be time savings? It would add more city pairs with Raleigh? The Western Virginia destinations the Crescent serves could be served with an additional regional train.

Also add the former route between Savannah and Jacksonville via Thalmann. With the time savings you could extend the Palmetto to Jacksonville. That would be 8 daily trains, four in each direction, on their own ROW between Savannah and Jacksonville.

Split the Silver Meteor and Silver Star at Jacksonville, half running down the FEC to Miami and the other half down the A line to Orlando and Tampa.


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Tom V wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:12 am What about the Crescent changing it’s route to Charlotte from Washington via the S line. Would there be time savings? It would add more city pairs with Raleigh?

Nah. The CSX Charlotte subdivision to Monroe and then the CSX main to Hamlet are all single tracked and have few sidings. In addition, Monroe to Hamlet runs through some of the emptiest portions of NC while Greensboro and High Point are significant stops for the Crescent.

Amtrak did consider the opposite of this strategy. Their route improvement plan for the Star was to run it from Raleigh to Charlotte via the NCRR and take it off of the S-Line South of Cary. Amtrak thought the move would increase ridership, but the lack of a good station option in Columbia (from the NS tracks) was a big obstacle.

Lots of money has gone into the NCRR to increase capacity and speed. The ARRA grants paid to double track Charlotte to Greensboro (and put several new sidings between Greensboro and Raleigh). Gboro to Charlotte tracks were also improved to Class 5 standards (but NCDOT has not been paying to maintain them as Class 5 tracks). It is an excellent corridor and all of NCDOT's efforts have been going into increasing frequency on it.

Bob Roberts wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:55 pm

Tom V wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:12 am What about the Crescent changing it’s route to Charlotte from Washington via the S line. Would there be time savings? It would add more city pairs with Raleigh?

Nah. The CSX Charlotte subdivision to Monroe and then the CSX main to Hamlet are all single tracked and have few sidings. In addition, Monroe to Hamlet runs through some of the emptiest portions of NC while Greensboro and High Point are significant stops for the Crescent.

I think he's saying run the Crescent Richmond-Raleigh-Greensboro-Charlotte instead of Charlottesville-Lynchburg-Danville-Greensboro-Charlotte. So in essence, run the Carolinian with an Atlanta & New Orleans extension which is probably what the eventual SEHSR will look like.