Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

The number of trains being diverted from GCT to NYP is far from a few. 108 trains a day is a lot to be diverted and for very good reason. People who live in Co-op, Morris Park, Parkchester, and Hunts Point will be very happy to have as much MNR rail service as the people living in the Central, North, and West Bronx. Yes, I am worried about the capacity constraints at CP216 with many of the trains getting diverted to NYP from NYG. Something tells me that during many times of the day each day, there will be two MNR trains an hour each way serving the East Bronx and the rush hour-it will probably be more like three to four. I could be wrong about this but during off peak hours and weekends, I could see a train running only between NYP and New Rochelle as well as a NYP-Stamford local during an hour timeblock.

njtmnrrbuff wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:40 amThe number of trains being diverted from GCT to NYP is far from a few. 108 trains a day is a lot to be diverted and for very good reason. People who live in Co-op, Morris Park, Parkchester, and Hunts Point will be very happy to have as much MNR rail service as the people living in the Central, North, and West Bronx. Yes, I am worried about the capacity constraints at CP216 with many of the trains getting diverted to NYP from NYG. Something tells me that during many times of the day each day, there will be two MNR trains an hour each way serving the East Bronx and the rush hour-it will probably be more like three to four. I could be wrong about this but during off peak hours and weekends, I could see a train running only between NYP and New Rochelle as well as a NYP-Stamford local during an hour timeblock.

The way I read it more than half are diversions, which to be fair is more than a few, I didn't word that well, but some appear to be new service as well, increasing the total load on SHELL. I wonder what the actual demand will look like? My bet is that over time as people move and get new jobs, the demand will go up significantly, even if it's soft at start. I don't know how that translates to capacity versus schedule considerations of running express and local service on the line versus running everything as a local for those four stations, sort of like Harlem-125th.

Do we know if SHELL is the limiting factor for service, or if Penn and HAROLD are the limiting factors? SHELL is a weird arrangement, but in raw volume, I don't think it's anywhere close to CP5 or WEST END, both of which are at grade. Not to mention oddballs like the Raritan Line snaking across HUNTER and CLIFF.

Not all slots have to be consumed, but I wonder if anything is going to consume some or all of the slots on the Hudson Line between CP5 and CP1 that the NHL will be diverting to Penn.

Another idea that I'm surprised isn't included in the plan is a Northern Blvd station in Queens. I wonder if Amtrak won't allow MN to put a station in 2-track territory? That would be a relatively easy place to put a station, and even a logical place for Amtrak to service Queens out of. You'd think it would be politically advantageous to involve Queens in the plans as well, even though arguably it may be of questionable transit value given the amount of transit in that area already and the future Sunnyside LIRR station in the middle of HAROLD interlocking.

Rockingham Racer wrote: ↑Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:28 am I would not want to do the walk to the Co-Op City station either when it's cold or there is inclement weather. The feeder bus route seems to be the way to go. The existing BX30 bus could simply run between the #6 Dyre Ave line, thru Co-Op, and over to Metro North.

The Bx23 is currently the circulator bus in Co-Op City, and pretty all you need to do is increase service as-needed. There will be turnover there anyway (some riders will travel between the Section 5 MNRR station and the other portions of Co-Op City, and others will travel between Section 5 and the 6 at Pelham Bay Park). There's also a few other routes that terminate at Section 5, providing access from the Gun Hill/Allerton corridors. (And all of this is supposed to remain the same once the Bronx Bus Redesign is implemented)

I don't see much to be gained by extending the route to Dyre Avenue. For reverse-peak service towards Westchester/Connecticut, you're already better off taking a Bee Line Bus to New Rochelle. For peak direction service towards Penn, a Baychester Avenue route would cover more of the Northeast Bronx.

njtmnrrbuff wrote:I could be wrong about this but during off peak hours and weekends, I could see a train running only between NYP and New Rochelle as well as a NYP-Stamford local during an hour timeblock.

My impression (and I think that of many others here) is that this is to be primarily a NYP-New Rochelle/Stamford service catering to East Bronx residents who work either near NYP/the West Side and in Westchester/SW CT.

Would be interesting to see how many Westchester/CT residents (including from east of Stamford) would use this to commute to the East Bronx or near NYP/the West Side. But otherwise I would assume that almost all of the current riders (well, pre-COVID customers who return) will continue to take the train to GCT. For one, for commuters coming from/to north of New Rochelle the Hell Gate Line doesn't seem all that competitive travel time wise compared to the existing route via the Harlem Line and Woodlawn Jct. Unless anyone working in Herald Square, etc. would truly rather avoid using the subway at all/as much as possible.

It's worth saying that for decades people chose their suburb based on if they worked near Penn or Grand Central. Ad men, Westchester or Connecticut. Rag trade, NJ or Long Island. Etc. For Wall Street, it was a toss-up.

The stretch of I-95 from New Rochelle to Stamford has plenty of offices within walking distance of the train station, especially Stamford and Greenwich. There are probably many people who live in the East Bronx and work in many of the towns between New Rochelle and Stamford. They might work office jobs or even retail and hospitality. There are probably many nurses who live in the Parkchester area and work for doctors in Westchester County and SW Fairfield Counties. You may have plenty of people who live in Lower Westchester and SW Fairfield Counties who work in the East Bronx as well as in West Midtown. There are a couple of big hospitals in the East Bronx like Jacobi and Einstein Medical Centers. Though a ways from where the Hunts Point Station will be built, there are probably plenty of people who work in the warehouses around there who don't drive. They could live in other parts of the East Bronx or even in Westchester County along the LI Sound.

Yes, the Bx23 bus route circulates around Co-op City. A good idea would be to increase service along this route. Unlike Riverdale where many people might drive or walk to the train, Co-op City may have many people who will walk but many people will take the bus to get to the station. I have a feeling that little parking will be offered at Co-op City Station. It looks like at Riverdale Station, the parking lot isn't super big. There will still be people who live in Co-op City who will need to use the 6 train-for example, if you live in Section 5 and are heading to East Harlem.

NH2060 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:08 pm Would be interesting to see how many Westchester/CT residents (including from east of Stamford) would use this to commute to the East Bronx or near NYP/the West Side. But otherwise I would assume that almost all of the current riders (well, pre-COVID customers who return) will continue to take the train to GCT. For one, for commuters coming from/to north of New Rochelle the Hell Gate Line doesn't seem all that competitive travel time wise compared to the existing route via the Harlem Line and Woodlawn Jct. Unless anyone working in Herald Square, etc. would truly rather avoid using the subway at all/as much as possible.

The dynamic that shifts Fairfield/Westchester commuters onto the Hell Gate will be the movement of firms into Hudson Yards. You'd go from a transfer to the 7 at GCT and a 10-15 minute ride on a crowded subway train to a one-seat ride to Penn then a 5 minute walk. That could make a powerful difference depending on the schedules.

This is also why I'd not be at all surprised to see Pelham Manor residents start agitating for a station within a couple years of the service starting.

As to that post above about "safety" on the Hell Gate-- I mean, you've got to be kidding me. Crotona, Claremont and Mt. Hope are some of the roughest neighborhoods in The Bronx but nobody's trying to throw stuff on the tracks at Tremont station.

NH2060 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:08 pmMy impression (and I think that of many others here) is that this is to be primarily a NYP-New Rochelle/Stamford service catering to East Bronx residents who work either near NYP/the West Side and in Westchester/SW CT.

The way I understand it is that the original plan was all about commutation to NYP from CT for better subway access to Lower Manhattan and to take pressure off of the IRT Lexington Avenue Line, and that reverse commutation from The Bronx was largely a side benefit as MN has been relatively successful with reverse commutation on the New Haven Line.

Although the MNRR cars will supposedly have contact shoes for 3rd rail. C-35 stated that additional CAT power by another substation . Would this be for the MNRR? / If so wonder if some of the tracks that LIRR uses for storage at NYP get CAT to reduce the loads on the LIRR 3rd rail ?

Ridgefielder wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:19 pm Crotona, Claremont and Mt. Hope are some of the roughest neighborhoods in The Bronx but
nobody's trying to throw stuff on the tracks at Tremont station.

Far Rockaway and East New York are often said to be the most dangerous LIRR stations by crews,
what are the worst at MNCR? Melrose seems like one (being dark and hidden under an apartment building).

Ridgefielder wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:19 pm Crotona, Claremont and Mt. Hope are some of the roughest neighborhoods in The Bronx but
nobody's trying to throw stuff on the tracks at Tremont station.

Actually...only because I vividly remember this happening... *starts singing Fall Out Boy's "My Songs Know What You Did In The Dark"*
Mattress on Metro-North Tracks Triggers Train Fire and Evacuation, FD Says - https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201307 ... -mta-says/

west point wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:39 pmAlthough the MNRR cars will supposedly have contact shoes for 3rd rail. C-35 stated that additional CAT power by another substation . Would this be for the MNRR? / If so wonder if some of the tracks that LIRR uses for storage at NYP get CAT to reduce the loads on the LIRR 3rd rail ?

Their hare-brained kludge is that they are going to run PRR third rail up to the 25/60hz phase break just north of GATE interlocking and use double-sided shoes. They still need capacity improvements in the Amtrak 60hz power system on the Hell Gate Line up to the phase break with the MN system at SHELL to power the additional trains. LIRR will be running fewer trains into NYP, so the PRR third rail system already has the capacity necessary for trains to hang out there if they are inefficiently parking trains in yards.

The much better way to run this, which hopefully will be done in the future, is to use 25/60hz capable equipment, either EMUs or push/pull and through-run with NJT so that the third rail kludge is not needed, capacity would be improved, and while a small number of NJT trains would still need to be stored at Sunnyside, New Haven Line trains would be through-run, and not stay in NYC. Most NJT trains that aren't through-run should be able to turn and burn back to NJ once the Gateway tunnels are completed, operating more like regional rail than old school commuter trains. LIRR already has the capacity in the East River to turn and burn, they just have capacity problems further out on the system that will be partially addressed by the third main track boondoggle, although some will remain.

ElectricTraction wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:43 am

west point wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:39 pmAlthough the MNRR cars will supposedly have contact shoes for 3rd rail. C-35 stated that additional CAT power by another substation . Would this be for the MNRR? / If so wonder if some of the tracks that LIRR uses for storage at NYP get CAT to reduce the loads on the LIRR 3rd rail ?

Their hare-brained kludge is that they are going to run PRR third rail up to the 25/60hz phase break just north of GATE interlocking and use double-sided shoes. They still need capacity improvements in the Amtrak 60hz power system on the Hell Gate Line up to the phase break with the MN system at SHELL to power the additional trains. LIRR will be running fewer trains into NYP, so the PRR third rail system already has the capacity necessary for trains to hang out there if they are inefficiently parking trains in yards.

Why is this a "hare-brained kludge"? New Haven electric MU's and locomotives have been switching from overhead AC to 3rd rail DC power to access Grand Central since 1907.

Seems to me that if we can design, say, rockets that will boost a capsule into orbit then return to earth and land themselves we can design a 3rd rail contact shoe capable of shifting position for over- and under-running.

Ridgefielder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:20 amWhy is this a "hare-brained kludge"? New Haven electric MU's and locomotives have been switching from overhead AC to 3rd rail DC power to access Grand Central since 1907.

Because they'll have to build more PRR 3rd rail just to avoid having equipment that can use the existing overhead catenary at 25hz, and while it doesn't impede NJT run-through in the future, spending the money on the correct equipment for the route would allow for it now, instead of with future equipment that is 25hz capable.

Third rail is a necessary evil on the Harlem Line/Grand Central and for LIRR, but overhead AC power should be used whenever possible.

However, I will admit that as much as it is a hare-brained kludge, there is one advantage to building this useless, redundant, and otherwise unnecessary third rail extension in that if all of the M-8 fleet is equipped with dual-sided shoes that can be switched on the fly, some GCT-bound trains from the New Haven Line could be re-routed to Penn if there were a major problem on the route to GCT.