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  • North River Tunnels (Hudson River) Discussion (Repairs, History, Status, Etc.)

  • This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.
This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

 #1557426  by electricron
 
Another news article by the Daily News.
https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny- ... story.html
Curtains for Gateway: Jersey attacks the smartest plan to fix Hudson River rail tunnel
That finally public report by London Bridge Associates proves that the Superstorm Sandy-flooded tubes can and should be repaired in place, exactly as this column has been saying since January 2019, when Gov. Cuomo wisely pushed a similar plan for the L train.
Our feelings aren’t hurt by the Jersey Boys’ gang-up, for it’s clear they’re just lashing out because their bloated $30 billion Gateway plan is being exposed as the boondoggle it is. There is a faster, cheaper, less disruptive way to fix two tubes and dig two new ones, and now we have it in 208 wonky pages.
And another
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny ... story.html
Cuomo says report shows Hudson River rail tunnels can be fixed without closing
Gov. Cuomo on Sunday said an incoming report will poke a hole in plans to fix a pair of 110-year-old Hudson River rail tunnels damaged by Hurricane Sandy in 2012.
But Cuomo said a new report will show the current tunnels can be fixed without closing — citing a similar strategy the Metropolitan Transportation Authority used to fix the L train’s Sandy-damaged East River tunnel.
The two new tunnels would have the added benefit of untangling bottlenecks near Penn Station and increasing the frequency of trains across the river. But if they’re found to be simply to increase capacity and aren’t essential to fixing the current tunnels, the project could have a harder time qualifying for federal funding.
The report has been compiled by the engineering consultant London Bridge Associates, which was contracted by the Port Authority in July 2019. It’s been delivered to the Gateway Program Development Corporation, a nonprofit formed to stump for the tunnel project.
Wow!
 #1558735  by mtuandrew
 
I could rebuild my old car to better-than-new condition too, but even if it has a better drivetrain etc it’s still an old car with all the limitations of an old car. If that’s your thing, great, but it’s hard to upgrade an antique into a daily driver.
 #1558878  by mtuandrew
 
eolesen wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:28 pm Tell that to the historical building preservation folks who think anything old shouldn't be torn down.....
Tell them? I is one :p

And speaking as one, pretty much everyone in my field loves adaptive reuse, and most of us accept that old buildings & structures will get torn down if they’re past saving.
 #1562973  by electricron
 
lensovet wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:13 am The 1.9T proposal from Biden makes it clear that he learned from Obama's mistakes and will not be shy about pushing for "traditional" blue priorities, bipartisanship be damned. In my mind, that actually significantly improves the chances of this and many other projects getting started (think CAHSR as well).
Here is the some sad news for new Gateway Tunnel proponents.
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny ... story.html
"Cuomo says report shows Hudson River rail tunnels can be fixed without closing"
Gov. Cuomo on Sunday said an incoming report will poke a hole in plans to fix a pair of 110-year-old Hudson River rail tunnels damaged by Hurricane Sandy in 2012.
But Cuomo said a new report will show the current tunnels can be fixed without closing — citing a similar strategy the Metropolitan Transportation Authority used to fix the L train’s Sandy-damaged East River tunnel.
The two new tunnels would have the added benefit of untangling bottlenecks near Penn Station and increasing the frequency of trains across the river. But if they’re found to be simply to increase capacity and aren’t essential to fixing the current tunnels, the project could have a harder time qualifying for federal funding.
The report has been compiled by the engineering consultant London Bridge Associates, which was contracted by the Port Authority in July 2019. It’s been delivered to the Gateway Program Development Corporation, a nonprofit formed to stump for the tunnel project."

And a NYT article as well
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/06/us/p ... ation.html
Key points from the NYT article.
55,000 Transportation Department employees
Transportation Department budget around $87 Billion
Highways and Public Transit budget around $47 Billion
Large chunks of the department’s budget is controlled by funding formulas set by Congress.

The article was more about politics than it was about building specific projects, giving excuses on why Buttigieg may not be able to make all the changes they want him to make, or the changes he wishes to make. After all, Congress controls the purse strings.

The best time to make changes is when that Department's legislative programs are renewed, that is when Congress is more likely to make changes. Otherwise, from year to year the individual programs continue to be funded until the next renewal. Congress does not renew every program every two years. The last time the most important FTA programs was renewed was in 2015.

The Fast Act as passed by Congress, for the eager legal beavers to boring for most of us
https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/fta.d ... neFAST.PDF
A government information page everyone commenting should read.
https://www.transit.dot.gov/funding/gra ... ut-program

And last, Amtrak has already stated they will start refurbishing the North River Tunnels now, whatever the status of the Gateway Tunnels.
https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/09/amtr ... inion.html

"That project, the Hudson Tunnel Project, will keep today’s service running while we rebuild for the future. A partnership of Amtrak, NJ TRANSIT, the Port Authority, the states of New York and New Jersey and the Gateway Program Development Corporation has worked hard to advance the Hudson Tunnel Project, but it isn’t moving at the pace we need.
In our capacity as owner and steward of this crucial national asset, Amtrak is stepping in to perform targeted repairs in the North River Tunnel to protect and improve reliability for riders today, while we continue working toward the long-term solution we really need – the Hudson Tunnel Project that will finally replace a one-track-in, one-track-out system with modern, 21st-century rail infrastructure.
In coordination with the Federal Railroad Administration and our partners at NJ TRANSIT, Amtrak has launched the North River Tunnel Interim Reliability Improvement program. This effort will identify and prioritize work that can be done in the tunnel during limited night and weekend outages to immediately improve service reliability without introducing new risk to operations. Borrowing a page from Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s leadership on the Canarsie Tunnel project under the East River, we have convened a cross-section of experts from industry and academia to analyze conditions and develop solutions that will deliver quick results while minimizing the operational risk associated with working within the limited maintenance windows necessary to preserve service levels."

Looks like Governor Cuomo hit a nerve at Amtrak headquarters to get them started on repairing the existing tunnels. ;)
 #1563231  by lensovet
 
electricron wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:24 am

In coordination with the Federal Railroad Administration and our partners at NJ TRANSIT, Amtrak has launched the North River Tunnel Interim Reliability Improvement program. This effort will identify and prioritize work that can be done in the tunnel during limited night and weekend outages to immediately improve service reliability without introducing new risk to operations. Borrowing a page from Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s leadership on the Canarsie Tunnel project under the East River, we have convened a cross-section of experts from industry and academia to analyze conditions and develop solutions that will deliver quick results while minimizing the operational risk associated with working within the limited maintenance windows necessary to preserve service levels."

Looks like Governor Cuomo hit a nerve at Amtrak headquarters to get them started on repairing the existing tunnels. ;)
here's what i don't understand: weekend service is already limited to one bore. my understanding was that this was done so that repairs could be made. if they are just stating this now, what on earth have they been doing since those service reductions were put in place years ago?
 #1563352  by west point
 
It will take a detailed examination of the work for the "L" tunnel and compare it to the North river tunnels to determine the long term feasibility of the repairs being a long term help or just a band-aid. IMO all the work possible needs doing now to prevent a "premature" failure of one of the tunnels. Of course what happens if the work has to stop because of failure of one of the Hudson bores ?
 #1563365  by electricron
 
lensovet wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:52 am here's what i don't understand: weekend service is already limited to one bore. my understanding was that this was done so that repairs could be made. if they are just stating this now, what on earth have they been doing since those service reductions were put in place years ago?
Temporary repairs? Improving the west Penn Station interlocking (junction)? Improving tracks and platforms at Penn Station? To tell the truth, I have not the slightest idea.
The key point is that they never planned to rebuild the old tunnels, the plans all along had been to rejuvenate the old tunnels, and that can be done without taking them out of service for prolonged periods of time.
It might be cheaper and quicker to do with a prolonged shutdown - but that requires both new Gateway tunnels at a very high expense be built first. It just might be quicker to rejuvenate the old tunnels with more short tunnel shutdowns and rejuvenate in smaller steps.
Suppose it only takes a year to rejuvenate each of the old tunnels in one prolonged shutdown, but takes three times longer with shorter shutdowns. Bot could be done in 6 years. How long do you think it would take the Port Authority to build both Gateway Tunnels? If you stated more than 4 years, then 4 years to build new tunnels + 2 years to rejuvenate both old tunnels takes 6 years to do. Meanwhile, one existing tunnel could be done in 3 years, and the second in 6 years. I'll be honest, I have not the slightest idea what the timelines are or would be, just putting out a what if.

What we do know is that Amtrak has been delaying rejuvenating the old tunnels, using their sad sorry state of health as a political crutch to get Congress to invest huge amounts of cash into two new tunnels, instead of going ahead and rejuvenating them as quickly as possible.
 #1563367  by David Benton
 
My understanding was that they need to remove walkways , to access areas needing repair . These walkways would then have to be reinstated before going to back to operation , in case of the need for an emergency evacuation. I would say that uses up a good chunk of the available time for repairs.
 #1563480  by electricron
 
David Benton wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:40 pm My understanding was that they need to remove walkways , to access areas needing repair . These walkways would then have to be reinstated before going to back to operation , in case of the need for an emergency evacuation. I would say that uses up a good chunk of the available time for repairs.
Walkways hanging from the tunnels walls can be installed above the bulkheads that need to be repaired, making the walkway excuse not applicable. Wires and conduits in the bulkhead can also be moved to the tunnel walls as well. Then the bulkheads can be completely removed as being redundant. Then you could decide whether to rebuild the bulkheads or not. They would not be needed if the other structures were built as permanent replacements.
 #1563557  by ExCon90
 
Doesn't the original plan to rehab the existing tunnels date from prior to Sandy? My understanding has been that the damage from Sandy completely changed the scope of the project to require a much more thoroughgoing rebuild than originally contemplated. And running only six trains an hour in each direction would confine the work to weekends, dragging out the project for a long time.
 #1565200  by west point
 
I get a real sinking feeling whenever I hear about the desire to fix the tunnels first. IMO go ahead with the fixing of the old tunnel bores but do not delay one hour longer before starting the new tunnel bores. What if a mistake is made putting one of the old tunnels out of service for a year or more ?

Then of course the possibility although not big is what happens if another "Sandy" comes along. Another flooding of the old bores could be disastrous. Does anyone know if some kind of flood gate is now in place ?
 #1565230  by STrRedWolf
 
west point wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:07 pm I get a real sinking feeling whenever I hear about the desire to fix the tunnels first. IMO go ahead with the fixing of the old tunnel bores but do not delay one hour longer before starting the new tunnel bores. What if a mistake is made putting one of the old tunnels out of service for a year or more ?

Then of course the possibility although not big is what happens if another "Sandy" comes along. Another flooding of the old bores could be disastrous. Does anyone know if some kind of flood gate is now in place ?
From what I could tell, no, there is NO flood gate on ether side of both the North River or East River tunnels. Anyone knows if it's part of the new tunnels and rehab plan?
 #1565284  by west point
 
No flood gates ? How foolish can that be ? suppose another "sandy" more salt water into the tunnels and maybe even the platforms. Now in the very unlikely even any of the bores are breached the flooding at NYP could flood out the platforms and all the equipment being stored especially during a mid weekday.
 #1565336  by Ken W2KB
 
"Amtrak also released more details about what led to the outages. Officials said an electrical contact failed about 4:30 p.m. at the entrance of the tunnel where the catenary wires intersect with the tunnel’s flood gates." Other articles mention that these gates, at the NY Penn end, were installed in the WWII era for mitigation of potential bombing or sabotage damage. The articles also state that Amtrak senior management made a well-reasoned decision not to close the flood gates when Sandy began to fill the tunnel, as doing so would have resulted in the lower level of Penn Station filling with water causing much more extensive damage.
Year old article quoted in part above: https://nj1015.com/nj-transit-sorry-for ... on-tunnel/