Extending service on the Harlem and Hudson lines

njtmnrrbuff wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:10 pm Midtown Manhattan to Rhinecliff is like 95 miles and I would rather be riding in an Amfleet that
distance over a Shoreliner.

Port Jervis is 95 from HOB, the farthest distance on MNCR (Montauk is 117 miles from Penn Station). Waterbury
is 88 with transfer required.

It's a shame Bernard Rudberg is no longer with us.... he'd probably have some good insight into a routing from one of the now-defunct roads.

If you look at where the Taconic State Parkway runs through (about midway across), you can see that the much of the Maybrook/Beacon parallels the Harlem anyway. Unfortunately, running west misses White Plains. It at least brings you across from more distant points perpendicular to the Hudson, with a connection at Beacon that would be easy to set up. A through train would have to change ends.

The most sense, with a connection that would need to be fixed, would be Danbury to Brewster. That would ease traffic on 84, 684, 22, and the Saw Mill that's heading to Westchester/White Plains.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:23 pm It's a shame Bernard Rudberg is no longer with us.... he'd probably have some good insight into a routing from one of the now-defunct roads.

If you look at where the Taconic State Parkway runs through (about midway across), you can see that the much of the Maybrook/Beacon parallels the Harlem anyway. Unfortunately, running west misses White Plains. It at least brings you across from more distant points perpendicular to the Hudson, with a connection at Beacon that would be easy to set up. A through train would have to change ends.

The most sense, with a connection that would need to be fixed, would be Danbury to Brewster. That would ease traffic on 84, 684, 22, and the Saw Mill that's heading to Westchester/White Plains.

Those are shoes I couldn't hope to fill. However, if you're talking about the defunct roads and some sort of commuter service-- it's worth noting that part of the reason the Beacon Line isn't straight is that it is actually two different railroads. Beacon to Hopewell Jct. was the main line of the Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut (a/k/a The Never Did & Couldn't), which ran from Beacon to Millerton by way of Hopewell, Lagrangeville, Millbrook and Pine Plains. Hopewell Jct. to Danbury was the main line of the New York & New England. After the New Haven obtained control of the NY&NE this line was combined with the Central New England branch from Poughkeepsie to Hopewell Jct. to form the Maybrook freight line.

Just drawing lines on a map-- but if you're looking for service to the more populous part of central Dutchess, rebuilding a few miles of the ND&C north of Hopewell Jct. is the more obvious way to go. No idea if this ROW is still intact, though. The New Haven abandoned it when it junked most the rest of the old Central New England in the mid-1930's.

Putting back the old connection to the Maybrook just north of Brewster(B) interlocking is now a lost cause,due to development on,where the ROW was

Backshophoss wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:29 pm Putting back the old connection to the Maybrook just north of Brewster(B) interlocking is now a lost cause,due to development on,where the ROW was

It's not a huge condo complex or something-- it's some industrial/commercial buildings. I don't think an eminent domain lawsuit with the Burke Oil Co. folks is going to be the biggest hurdle on running Danbury-White Plains via the Maybrook .

That said if they were to do this, it would be cheaper and easier to just run a direct N-S connection across North Main St. to the north of the old Putnam Jct. and have any through service change ends at the platform in Southeast.

Backshophoss wrote:Putting back the old connection to the Maybrook just north of Brewster(B) interlocking is now a lost cause,due to development on,where the ROW was

The ROW is all still owned by the Durkin Family. They own the property that Burke heating, Don's Automotive and the lot on the west side of North Main street is.
When talking to the rail trail workers they were saying they had heard something about tying in somewhere the new rail trail was not completed. The paving was stopped at Tonetta Lake Rd overpass all the way to Pumphouse rd. While there is quiet a bit of wetlands in the area, I'm sure it is possible. Also, remember I believe MTA does or did have in there capital plan a new station in Southeast. Talking to town reps the plan called for extending the Brewster yard north into the parking lot across from the current station and placing the station north near the northern parking lot with a parking area or parking structure on the east side of the tracks. If you look at google maps its conceivable to see a new track turn off just north of Tonetta lake rd and go into the potential area of the new station...

If I remember correctly, the old connection was below Southeast, and had curvature issues as well. A connection in a northerly direction could work, but as you note, they'd have to change directions.

Given headways and capacity closer in, I'd expect any such service to be a shuttle and not through service, unless they just extend an existing electric train that originates in SE by changing it to a diesel, provided, of course, that they can find a way to not change ends as well.

Looked up SE station: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_station

I didn't think it was an original New York Central station; it opened in 1980 during Conrail days. It was the replacement for Dykemans, which closed in 1968.

It's also huge: 1,010 parking spots. Maybe 1010WINS should sponsor the station?

A new station at SE would be nice.

Having lived in Danbury for a couple years, as well as Patterson, the 84 intersections are terrible, especially 684. Once can safely assume that the Harlem line attracts much ridership from Western Connecticut. Anything from probably below Bethel would continue to go there, but from within the 84 corridor and north, Southeast is an attractive option. And it's not just NYC that's a destination; it's all the intermediate stations along the way that service office parks, plus White Plains. I did the Patterson/NY commute; it was crazy, two hours each way.

Now, if you could get those folks off the road between Danbury and Southeast, that would be great.

Problems: the station at Danbury doesn't have a lot of parking, although I think there's a garage not far. It's not really convenient to the 84 corridor, either. You'd also have to have a new platform at the old station, now the DRM. And if you're coming off the branch, you'd need a change in direction I think (I think there might be a track that bypasses the new station?). You'd need a station somewhere along Lake St. or thereabouts where there's a lot of room for good parking, and good access to 84/7.

That leads me to believe that if CTDOT ever gets serious about this aside from the Danbury Mayor, they could also look at New Milford service (yes, I know, HRRC is a hurdle) with a station somewhere on Federal Road, Brookfield, and NM. They'd come in from the Berkshire Line onto the Maybrook; no change in direction.

Definitely agree it would be nice for MN to run to New Milford and create a station near the 7/84 interchange in Danbury. Also think it would be great if they could run on the Maybrook to Southeast. If they could squeeze a connecting track between the Maybrook and Harlem lines you could run through. I've been on 84 thru Danbury to 684 and it is a bear especially during rush hour. Having this option for commuters to lower Fairfield and Westchester counties could help a little bit of this traffic.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:30 am Problems: the station at Danbury doesn't have a lot of parking, although I think there's a garage not far. It's not really convenient to the 84 corridor, either. You'd also have to have a new platform at the old station, now the DRM. And if you're coming off the branch, you'd need a change in direction I think (I think there might be a track that bypasses the new station?). You'd need a station somewhere along Lake St. or thereabouts where there's a lot of room for good parking, and good access to 84/7.

That leads me to believe that if CTDOT ever gets serious about this aside from the Danbury Mayor, they could also look at New Milford service (yes, I know, HRRC is a hurdle) with a station somewhere on Federal Road, Brookfield, and NM. They'd come in from the Berkshire Line onto the Maybrook; no change in direction.

There is no track that bypasses the new station. There is a track that bypasses the *loop* at Danbury, but it starts just east of the new station and runs from southbound on the Danbury Branch to eastbound on the Maybrook. Wouldn't do anything to eliminate the need for a reverse move to get from the Danbury station to westbound on the Maybrook.

As for intermediate stations-- I'd build two. One in the vicinity of the Segar St. grade crossing next to the Mall, to pick up US-7 and I-84 traffic, and the second at the park & ride by Exit 1 on I-84, which would service the condos on the old Union Carbide property and traffic coming north from Ridgefield on Saw Mill Rd.

Good info, thanks. It doesn't look like it would be too hard to make that northbound to westbound connection across the Still River, but it would require taking property along Chestnut St., east of the old turntable. It's not operationally necessary if you're coming down the Berkshire, and equipment swaps via the loop connection could still be made. I don't really see a need for Northbound trains form the branch to head west to Southeast as a through train.

I do see that connecting track westbound from the Maybrook to the new station, or to turn around and go back; that would be useful to get to the new station for shuttles from north or east for connections to use the pocket track. Through trains down to SoNo would continue to use the loop so as to not change ends

I thought about Segar St as a station (that's right by Chucks and the stone plant, right?). There's a park and ride there, too. The other park and ride would be a great location, too.

The old Interchange track was appx 1,000 ft north of B interlocking where track 2 started from the east yard lead,it curved right toward the Maybrook and Brewster's long gone New Haven station site
Not sure which way the Electric lock switch faced on the Maybrook side If west, Train would face the right way heading south on the Harlem to GCT, Remember the MayBrook was CTC/261 ,now MBS HELL.
CP Dyke was a straight foreward connection built thru a swamp,EL switch faced north to a trailing west hand throw on the Maybrook side,
CR turned the single track from Brewster North to CP Dyke into a mini CTC section

Hoss, didn't the double track extend up to where the Dykeman's station was at one time? Or am I thinking Towners? I do remember that there was a NH station right around there on the Maybrook, but that the NH ceased passenger service before 1930.

When did that old connection get taken out?

Did a quick search of HJ: population of about 500. I'd imagine it would be a good catchment area for surrounding area like Lagrangeville and Fishkill along route 9.

If you search Historic Hopewell Junction on YouTube, you get some good results, including some depot videos by Mr. Rudberg: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... tion%2C+NY

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:14 pm I thought about Segar St as a station (that's right by Chucks and the stone plant, right?). There's a park and ride there, too. The other park and ride would be a great location, too.

Correct-- Chucks and the O&G plant are both on Segar St. It crosses the tracks at grade right by that back entrance to the Mall, under the Route 7 overpass. If you get off 7 north at Park Ave it's a left turn at the 2nd traffic light. It's possibly the most highway-accessible station location in the whole of Danbury, honestly. While the tracks are quite close by the other 84/7 interchange near Federal Road getting there from the highway takes some doing.

It gets a bit dicey on double track from Put Jct to Tower X (Towners),history-wise,There was room on the ROW, for a second track, was first known interchange to the Maybrook, not sure when that was ripped out
The Model board at Brewster(B Int) Station ticket office,showed the curved interchange Electric Locked switch (blanked out) was north of the long north crossover switches
The 2nd main was put back in when B North was created along with CP Park(north end of Put Jct Yard) and CP Ride (End of Double track,start CTC to CP DYKE)