South Fallsburg to Middletown Rail Service Coming?

Question: What ROW would be used to connect South Fallsburg with Middletown? An old NYO&W route straight through? Or a combination of the current Metro North PJ Branch with an abandoned NYO&W route along Route 209? This is very interesting, to say the least!

News Article:

The federal transportation legislation that was approved by Congress last week includes a number of authorizations to start the ball rolling on future rail projects in the region.

Congressman Maurice Hinchey said two relate to Stewart Airport . “The Stewart Airport rail access for the Newburgh light rail transit system, which will work from Newburgh out into Stewart to move people around,” he said. Another rail line would connect the Port Jervis line to Stewart so that New York City travelers could take the train north to the airport.

A third proposal, the Middletown-South Fallsburgh Passenger Rail System, would seek to alleviate congestion along the New York Route 17, eventually to become Interstate 86 corridor.

http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/rail_ ... 7Apr04.htm

The mainline of the O&W connected Middletown and S. Fallsburg. I have no idea what would be involved in restoring this line. I don't see that the O&W's line to Port Jervis, or the Erie's line from Middletown to Port Jervis, would be involved here.
Aside from any problems restoring the O&W, it's about 30 miles from Middletown to S Fallsburg and the O&W took about an hour for the trip. To say the least, it was never a high speed line.
I have noticed that official discussions of railroad plans in Orange and Rockland counties tend to be "conceptual" and short on details. For example, I've gone to meetings of the official Thruway/MTA group which is planning transportation for the I287 corridor. There are a couple of rail alternatives presented, including a line from Suffern to Nyack and across the Hudson to Port Chester. I've asked the engineers what the proposed rail alignments might be. I'm always told that they haven't gotten to that level of detail yet. The same seems true of the discussions about high-speed rail service to Stewart Airport from New York City. It's hard for me to see a rail line from Middletown to S Fallsburg in the next 20 years.

I think this story is about a week late...

It will never happen. Population density along old O&W would not support it, and it is beyond commuter range. The only reason for such a thing would be for summer/ weekend traffic, and with Rte 17 wide open and convenient (it does get clogged on holiday weekends, though) there would be little passenger traffic on it. The reasons for the O&W's abandonment still apply today.

S. Fallsburg has a large summer population, as does the region as a whole, of largely NY City folks who have their own vehicles or take busses. Many of them reside at "campgrounds" comprised of cabins with outbuildings and rec fields and these are far enough off the beaten path that train travel would add nothing for convenience.

A far better use of money would be to extend passenger service in some form up the Erie past Port Jervis. The line passes right thru the center of Callicoon, which is about 25 miles from Liberty and Monticello. Busses could link them. Pennsylvania would benefit too. Run NYC express to Suffern, Middletown, PJ, Lacawaxen PA, Callicoon, and end at Hancock. Might open up some of western end of Rte 30, too. 2-3 trains each way would be a good start.

In short, relaying the O&W is just a fantasy.

Having biked several rail trails built on portions of the now abandoned NYO&W ROW in Sullivan County, I can attest to the fact that the ROW passed through few major population centers. Also, I believe most of the ROW south and east of Mountaindale is now in private ownership. Restoring service would be extremely expensive from a land acquisition standpoint.

However, isn't Sullivan the fastest growing county in NY State at this point? And what will happen to population there if casino construction starts soon as planned? Perhaps Route 17/86 might not be able to handle the increased volumes.

About two years ago, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver (a summer resident in the Catskills) funded an NYSDOT "preliminary" study of prospects for restoration of rail service to South Fallsburg. Edwards & Kelsey, the New Jersey-based consultants who prepared the feasibility report, came to the reasonable conclusion that rebuilding the largely intact O&W route from a connection with the MTA's Port Jervis line wouldn't result in journey times that would be competitive with NY-17, (soon to be I-86). The report, which I've seen, went on the shelf, where it is likely to stay.

On April 5th, Rep. Maurice Hinchey was in Loch Sheldrake for a news conference. Hinchey announced a grant to turn the 1853-era former Erie station at Cochecton into an information center on the Upper Delaware Scenic By-way (Rte. 97). Almost as an aside, he pointed out that there was also language in the House version of new Transportation Act "authorizing" service to South Fallsburg. Hinchey was careful to emphasize that there was NO money to pay for the project -- just an "authorization" should funding ever become available. Don't hold your breath.

NYO&W was a great road- great for modeling, great for photos, great for railfans. Bad for business. Bad for the track gangs that had to maintain it. The NYOW had the worst possible route through the Catskills... its up-and-down sawtooth profile would break the bank when it came to maintenance... would make startup of a seasonal passenger line very unlikely. Unfortuntate, because that area could use some transportation alternatives. -otto-

railtrailbiker wrote "However, isn't Sullivan the fastest growing county in NY State at this point? And what will happen to population there if casino construction starts soon as planned? Perhaps Route 17/86 might not be able to handle the increased volumes."

Orange County is the fastest growing county in NY.

Yes, casinos MAY be coming to the Catskills, specifically Monticello. Problem is Monticello is not on the route to S Fallsburg, nor on the mainline. It was on a branch. Also, unless the train runs right to the casino(s), you will have to transfer off the train. Busses will take you right there, just like Atlantic City.

Sheldon Silver is a Jew from NY City. No, that is not a bad thing and I have NO issue with that. But when he is speaking to S Fallsburg, he is speaking to a community that is largely Jewish with ties to NYC. Same when Hinchey speaks to Loch Sheldrake. These two areas and the surrounding ones have a large summer population of Jewish folks from NYC (again, I have no problem with that). They are simply being good at politics and aiming for votes from residents of NYC as well as those in the Catskills with one shot.

PLEASE don't take any of my comments to be anti-semetic. I am simply pointing out facts that anyone who is familiar with the area will know but those who aren't, won't.

"A far better use of money would be to extend passenger service in some form up the Erie past Port Jervis. The line passes right thru the center of Callicoon, which is about 25 miles from Liberty and Monticello. Busses could link them. Pennsylvania would benefit too. Run NYC express to Suffern, Middletown, PJ, Lacawaxen PA, Callicoon, and end at Hancock. Might open up some of western end of Rte 30, too. 2-3 trains each way would be a good start. "

Errrrr???
I don't understand the logic of this at all. If the heavily populated sections of Sullivan County don't justify a rail link to Middletown, why in the world would the far more remote and sparsely populated Delaware Valley? I don't comprehend this. Where the people are, and the concentrated tourism traffic, would be to the Bethel/Liberty/Monticello/Livingston Manor area, roughly the area served by the old O&W mainline and now close to Rt. 17/I-86. Even that doesn't seem feasible, the traffic just wouldn't be there.

The only thing running commuter service beyond Port Jervis would have going for it is that the line is already in place. Nobody would ride it. From the above it is almsot made to sound Callicoon has a population (Ok, that's an exaggeration, but still, from Port Jervis to the Bingahmton area the population is extremely sparse (by northeastern standards, it's a downright isolated region)). The population base just isn't there, there is tourism but not enough to support a passenger rail service, and besides, it's not like most people much west of Port Jervis on that line commute to NYC or the Ny suburbs anyway, once you get out that far, most people work locally, or head for the Monticello/Liberty or Carbondale/Scranton areas, and once you get out to Hancock and beyond, NYC is a world away for most people and Binghamton is the commercial/economic center.

As for the bus link from Liberty/Monticello, who in their right mind would take a 45 minute bus ride over back roads to some point on the Erie line, say Shohola since the distance would be about the same on the bus but you'd be 25 miles east of Callicoon already, and then ride down to Middletown, for example, when they could just get on 17 in their own vehicle, and either get off on 209 to Port Jervis and get on the train there, or continue another 20 minutes or so on 17 and be in Middletown (Middletown is at most an hour from Liberty on Rt. 17)? Nobody is going to change from a bus to a train and take a route that's twice as long to get to the same place, costs more, and deprives them of the freedom of travelling by private vehicle. I'm a railfan but even I wouldn't do that unless it was just for the sake of going for a train ride. That is the reality.

In short, not enough population and of those, not enough go the right direction anyway.

As railfans, any mention of restored rail service is always welcome news, especially if it utilizies a former ROW of a fan-popular railroad like the NYO&W. However I agree that none of these scenarios will probably ever happen, at least not in the near future. And not for the more obvious political/financial reasons, but for one listed in the opening post by oibu. That is lack of population to support the service.

I don't live in Orange County but from what I see when I'm out railfanning or riding my motorcycle, it seems most of the growth is in the eastern part of the county, nearer the Thruway and Rt 9W corridors. I have noticed that there is quite a bit of new development along Rt 17, but west of Middletown it drops off and reverts to a predominately rural region again. I do think a connection off the present NJT/MN Port Jervis Line to Stewart Airport would be a good idea, for freight as well as passengers.

In Sullivan County, if the casinos do come, I don't think that rail service would be the answer. Sullivan County has always been, and probably always will be, primarily a rural/farming county. The casnios may bring in some new development but I would think it would be clustered around the casnios and the resorts that are already there. The most likely transportation solution would be that additional lanes would be added to Rt 17/I 86

As for service west of Port Jervis I just don't see how that could be justified. If I recall my railroad history (and correct me if I'm wrong) the EL ran a local each way daily between Port and Binghamton and if it wasn't for the headend traffic the train carried it probably would have been dropped much sooner than it was. In 30-some years of traveling back home to PA via Rt 17 from northern NJ I've noticed that very little has changed to most of the towns along the old EL line. There has been some growth but I don't think it's been enough to warrant rail service. Again, the additional lanes to Rt 17/I 86 is the more probable solution until, or if, that area becomes as developed as the NY/NJ metro area is.

Like I said in my opening, as railfans we're always happy to hear that rail service may be restored but reality usually will always give us a good swift kick!

Joe P
Long Live The EL :D

That is pretty much correct, in the 50s and 60s there was a local each way daily that usually consisted on a baggage car or two, and RPO, and one coach. That should give a pretty good clue as to the demand for pass. service. In earlier days, say until the mid 50s or so, there would have been a few milk cars on the head end as well (Deposit, Cochecton, and Callicoon all had creameries).

There has been poplulation growth in that area, but it is far from being suburbanized (and hopefully never will meet that unfortunate fate, the federal protection of the Upper Delaware River at least pretty much gurantees limited development along the river corridor). The primary local industries are still farming, logging, sawmills, small manufacturing, and "support industries" (stores, gas stations, lumber yards, town highway departments, etc.) as well as tourism-related industries (shops, raft services, etc.).

Population has grown in the last few decades but not anywhere near as drastically as Orange County, Sussex County in NJ, or the Poconos. Population 100 years ago likely was greater than it is today, as there would have been far more demand for manpower in farming, logging, sawmills, bluestone quarries, etc. than there is today. Indeed there were villages/settlements in the area then that today no longer can boast of having single house.

Hinchey and Silver should be ashamed for wasting their time on this. All the arguments others have made in this thread are correct; in addition, the O&W used an expensive-to-maintain tunnel under the Shwangunks. What would really work would be a nice big P&R lot, with a garage even, at the current N Middletown station, and express service to NYC (OK, Hoboken) from there, along with some feeder buses (Short Line) into Loch Sheldrake etc. Think multi-modal!

I said nothing of commuter service past P Jervis. A regional service, like the Downeaster, is what I had in mind, maybe 2-3 round trips per day. Possibly even to Binghamton. I am sure there are some in the area who would go to NYC but have no desire to drive there and folks for the resorts could come out by train and transfer for the last leg.

Given the Erie runs up the NY/PA it would benefit both states more than the O&W route. Many camps in PA as well.

Development along 17 has little to do with the rails there. It is due to 17 being a feeder for the Thruway and Palisades commuters. So far there has been little need, economically, for people to move past Middletown and add further to their commute time. In 5-10 years that may change some, but not enough to justify new rails.