• B&S RR Switchbacks 2&3 photo's

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

  by dj_paige
 
lvrr325 wrote:Trains Magazine just put out a special issue In Search Of Steam - 1955 which has a couple pages on the B&S with late steam era photos of B&O power including a couple on one of the switchbacks.
Unless I missed it, none of the photos are identified as being on the switchbacks. Could you tell me which photos were on the switchbacks? Thanks!
  by lvrr325
 
Er, probably the one showing them shoving cars over a switch? I don't have it right here in front of me.
  by SST
 
Cross Forks Rd is the former ROW for the B&S Cross Fork line. How much of the road was the ROW I"m not completely certain.

If you look at the video again, you see the CF line disappear into the trees. The line then goes over the concrete abutments and curves to the left which then joins up with what is now Cross Forks Rd.

I drove on it last year and not all of the road looks like a ROW. I will be down there again this year to explore CF in more detail.
  by erie2937
 
The railroad did not use those abutments. They were for an old highway which used the railroad r-o-w after the tracks were removed. When you drive into the junction the r-o-w is below the road on your left. The road eventually runs down onto the old r-o-w about where the switch was located. To really understand what was there you need 7.5 minute topos, older ones. If you hike east on the r-o-w for a ways you come to the old yard and the wye where pushers were turned. If you hike west you eventually wind up on a switchback. Two switchbacks are accessible from the old junction point but be prepared for some serious hiking. Don't go in there wearing shorts and sneakers! And take along a snake bite kit. HTG
  by SST
 
The mainline of the B&S was used as the auto road and went under the abutments towards SB 2&3. This is why the fence is in place. The natural gas company blocked the auto road/ROW to prevent people from driving over the gas line ROW that sits between the fence and 2&3.

This photo is looking in a westerly direction while standing on the main. The abutments are in the distant background. The CF yard is somewhere behind me.

http://www.railfan.net/railpix/submit/s ... G_0028.jpg
  by erie2937
 
I have a copy of the Buffalo & Susquehanna Railroad Main Line Track Chart dated April 1930.

The chart places Cross Fork Junction at Milepost 126.64. The chart shows a highway crossing the railroad at grade level on a diagonal just west of a short siding on the south side of the main track that was probably a remnant of the Cross Fork Branch. East of the junction the chart shows a 75-car yard consisting of a siding on each side of the main track and a wye coming off the south siding. Immediately west of the junction the main line heads for Switch Back No.3 which has a 795' tail track. West of that is Greco at Milepost 124.7 and the lead to Switch back No.2 which has a 984' tail track. At Greco there is a 39 car siding. The chart does not show any bridge of any sort at Cross Fork Junction.

East of Cross Fork Yard the chart shows another public road crossing at grade level.

Further east of the wye at Milepost 130.7 is Cherry Springs where the chart shows an overhead steel girder highway bridge and a 28 car siding. This bridge is the state highway.

H.T. Guillaume
  by pumpers
 
erie2937 wrote:I have a copy of the Buffalo & Susquehanna Railroad Main Line Track Chart dated April 1930.
...The chart does not show any bridge of any sort at Cross Fork Junction. ...
As mentioned earlier, looking at the 1937-1942 (the earliest) pictures in Penn Pilot is very interesting ( http://www.pennpilot.psu.edu/). Enter "Short Run, PA" and look from there (if not familiar with Penn Pilot, then click on the red dot just west of Short Run, to be able to download the old aerial photo near the junction). Any ROW from the Cross Fork branch should clearly have still been visible in 1940. South of Cross Fork Junction, it sure seems the Cross Fork branch became modern Junction Rd going south, down to Abbott. South of Abbott, it followed the creek down to Cross Fork. North of Cross Fork junction, my guess is the modern Junction Rd, up to highway 44, never was a railroad ROW.

Back at the junction, in ~1940, the diagonal ROW in the picture, which is the route of the modern Junction Rd, leading to the B&S main, is clearly visible, but it looks overgrown compared to the then road route of Junction Rd over the bridge. Further, looking at topos http://www.mapper.acme.com, it looks like it would have been a bit tricky to get a train from the yard (just east of the bridge) up in elevation to get to the north bridge approach, as opposed to just taking the diagonal to the south, without the bridge, to get to the branch. So my guess is the diagonal (and modern road ROW) was the original railroad connection to the branch, and the bridge was for Junction Road at one time. Why they would have built a bridge to carry Junction Rd over the main in such a remote area with not so much train or car traffic, back before ~1940, as opposed to a grade crossing , is a good question. It may be that after the Cross Fork Branch came out, the yard area was still used for holding cars when trains were broken into sections to get them through the switchbacks and up the steep grades on the B&S main-- I've read that the maximum car length was only in the range of 5 or 10 cars for freight -- so that a grade crossing in that area would have frequently been blocked. In the time frame of 1913, from what I can make out at Wikipedia, a main part of the B&S business was moving coal, and a lot of it, from the DuBois/Sagamore PA region through Wharton, over the switchbacks, to Galeton, Wellsville, and then to Buffalo. So you could imagine a yard near the summit of the switchbacks to be very busy. Then maybe the the bridge, which perhaps dates to 1914 when the branch came out, [EDIT: the bridge may be from after 1930, according the track chart in the previos post], became outdated or worn out, and by then there was so little traffic on the B&S (if any), that the road bridge was abandoned and the modern road alignment crossing the old B&S main ROW at grade was adopted. But this is all just conjecture!!!

I don't have access to old track charts or the old topos mentioned earlier, which would be interesting. When was the last time this section of the B&S saw traffic?

JS
EDIT: According to the prior post, there was no bridge in 1930 if the track chart is right -- but there was one in 1938 according to the Penn Pilot photo. A 1941 map is not crystal clear, but it sure seems to show an overpass for Junction Rd, and not for other crossings in the area. ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BP ... r_1941.pdf
Was their still a lot of train traffic after 1930, so that the grade crossing had to be replaced with a bridge?
  by erie2937
 
Your suggestion that an overhead bridge was the most practical way for Junction Road to cross the B&S track is probably correct. Keep a couple things in mind. The branch down to Cross Fork came out before WWI. So the conversion of the railroad r-o-w to vehicle use would have occurred at about that time. Meanwhile, as you suggest, the B&S continued to operate frequent trains on its main line, so the most efficient way to access the old grade would have been to build an overpass, which is precisely what was done. The B&S/B&O continued to operate over the switch backs until July of 1942 when floods destroyed much of the track. After the floods of 1942 no B&S trains operated south/west of Burrows which is just a couple miles from Galeton. So, with the rails and ties gone, there was no further need for the overhead bridge and the vehicle road was swung over and down directly onto the long-abandoned Cross Fork branch. It is really that simple.

Sometime this summer our small gang of railroad archaeologists may try driving down the Junction Road to Cross Fork. One of us may have to sacrifice his vehicle though. When we were in there a couple years ago, while we were exploring the r-o-w and hiking up to the old yard and wye, several large lumber trucks came up the Junction Road and one fellow came along the r-o-w back in near the wye. He was driving some sort of Jeep. Those roads are very narrow. Encountering a lumber truck would be an adventure, mostly for the passenger vehicle. HTG
  by pumpers
 
erie2937 wrote:Your suggestion that an overhead bridge was the most practical way for Junction Road to cross the B&S track is probably correct. Keep a couple things in mind. The branch down to Cross Fork came out before WWI. So the conversion of the railroad r-o-w to vehicle use would have occurred at about that time. Meanwhile, as you suggest, the B&S continued to operate frequent trains on its main line, so the most efficient way to access the old grade would have been to build an overpass, which is precisely what was done. The B&S/B&O continued to operate over the switch backs until July of 1942 when floods destroyed much of the track. After the floods of 1942 no B&S trains operated south/west of Burrows which is just a couple miles from Galeton. So, with the rails and ties gone, there was no further need for the overhead bridge and the vehicle road was swung over and down directly onto the long-abandoned Cross Fork branch. It is really that simple.
HTG
HTG, I think we are in agreement -- but the one part that doesn't make sense then is your 1930 track chart that has a grade crossing for Junction Rd (presumably the one you mention on a diagonal just west of the yard) and not a road bridge. - JS
  by erie2937
 
Well, actually I think it does make sense that Junction Road is shown as a grade crossing in 1930. By 1930 the Cross Fork Branch had been abandoned for a long time and the r-o-w had been modified for vehicular traffic. This being the case, removal of the overhead bridge would have made vehicular access to the old roadbed much easier. Plus, removal of the overhead bridge would have reduced maintainance costs. If I can figure out a way to scan the relevant section of the 1942 topo this will make perfect sense to anyone who has not actually been to the junction and seen the layout of the terrain at that location. Even today Junction Road is narrow and basically unimproved. It is not maintained in the winter. I will be talking to Paul Pietrak tomorrow. I will ask him if he has any other maps or track charts. HTG
  by Cactus Jack
 
With all this information I still can't seem to figure out where the line crossed Route 44. A friend and I reconned the area last Saturday so I have some on the ground knowledge.

Maybe I have not dug far enough, there is so much here with so many links , some of which seem to lo longer exist. .... is there a clear overlay map anywhere ?

I am still confused as to if the B&S main and the Cross Fork Branch were grade separated in crossing or the branch simply came out the main line.

Sorry ...
  by erie2937
 
The Cross Fork Branch left the main line at Cross Fork Jct by means of a switch. The branch went south from there either directly on or immediately adjacent to what is now Cross Fork Road. The B&S r-o-w is several feet below the level of the road that runs in there from the state road. The B&S went under PA 44 a short distance east or south of where the road heads off 44 to the junction. It is not easy to spot the location of the B&S underpass now because the road has been rebuilt.
  by pumpers
 
Cactus Jack wrote:With all this information I still can't seem to figure out where the line crossed Route 44. A friend and I reconned the area last Saturday so I have some on the ground knowledge.

Maybe I have not dug far enough, there is so much here with so many links , some of which seem to lo longer exist. .... is there a clear overlay map anywhere ?

I am still confused as to if the B&S main and the Cross Fork Branch were grade separated in crossing or the branch simply came out the main line.

Sorry ...
Here is a link to a map site where I added some markers. You can toggle between topo mode and modern map mode to do a sort of overlap. http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=41.65592,-77 ... ounty%20PA
B is the crossing of Route 44. B-G-C-F-D is the route down thru 2 switchbacks to Burrows and Pine Creek valley to Galeton.
B-E-A-H is heading west, with Cross Fork Junction at H. It still isn't 100% clear to me is if coming up from Cross Fork, if the branch turned east and joined the main, with the branch on the south side of the main, or if the branch crossed over the main on the bridge and turned east and joined the main from the north side. HTG says there was no bridge in 1930 track maps, but it is clearly there in the 1938 Pennpilot photo, with the road using the bridge. So maybe the road (and auto bridge) weren't built until between 1930 and 1938, and the branch (which went out in 1914) never crossed the main but joined from the south. And after 1942 when RR traffic stopped, they stopped maintaining the road bridge and used the old branch ROW to cut directly across the tracks where the old yard was (where the modern road alignment is), as HTG proposes.
Hope this helps. JS
EDIT: just saw HTG's new post. I think we agree. I defer to him.
  by SST
 
Here's a video I made a few years ago. Maybe this will help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZO3BpAXJFE

In this photo that I took, I am standing on SB 2. Moving forward and to the left will take you up to SB 3. Keep to the right and you head in a generally westward direction as the ROW descends into the valley and towards Wharton then turning right to a northerly direction to SB 1.

http://www.railfan.net/railpix/submit/s ... G_0071.jpg
  by Cactus Jack
 
Thanks for all of the clarifications, that helped very much.

What a Route !