GE Euroloco

Very short blurb from Bloomberg:

Bloomberg wrote:General Electric Co. seeks to enter the European locomotive market via Belgium with a new product, the Euroloco, L’Echo reported, citing GE Transportation Chief Executive Officer Lorenzo Simonelli.

“Two things go together for us: to demonstrate this product in Belgium and to enter the European market,” Simonelli told the Belgian newspaper in an interview published today. “That’s our new strategy.”

Read more (not much more, unfortunately) at: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-1 ... -says.html

Hopefully a more in-depth article will be written soon on this subject!

Tantalizing lack of detail! The deal with Tuolomsas (sp?) to build locomotives with the Powerhaul engine(*) involves two locomotive models: the one that has been built for Britain, which is shoe-horned into the ultra-restrictive British loading gauge, and a somewhat larger one suitable for most of Europe. And I think the press-releases when the deal was signed mentioned that Tuolomsas was to build locomotives to for the European market. So, first guess is that this is more publicity for that project. It would be interesting if GE was planning to do something else instead or in addition-- maybe offer a GEVO-powered locomotive for European use? Or go back into the straight-electric business.
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(*) Given the fire problems that-- as reported in the general "Powerhaul" string-- that prime mover seems to be having, do you suppose GETS and Boeing Commercial Airplane people commiserate with each other if they meet?

Considering the pictures I've seen of the Japanese batteries currently used in 787s, this might very well be a golden opportunity for GE's battery division... assuming their batteries are not equipped with the PowerHaul's too-effective "keep warm" feature.

Sounds great until you realize that the Durathon battery is made with molten salt which I am sure would present it's own set of issues.

Not a good time to be producing a new large road diesel locomotive for Western Europe. I don't understand why the push in Belgium. There is currently a surplus of modern diesel locomotives capable of operating in France and the Benelux countries. Poland is where they should be looking. Romania and Bulgaria are also promising, though money might be an issue.

Previous GE incursion into Europe is not doing so well.

http://www.sterlingrail.com/classifieds ... hp?id=3173

Four of the eleven "Blue Tiger" locomotives are for sale and have been for a while. With certification only for Germany, they are going to be a hard sell.

GEVO wrote:Sounds great until you realize that the Durathon battery is made with molten salt which I am sure would present it's own set of issues.

IINM the Powerhaul locomotives use a different battery design (quite likely good ole' fashioned lead acid) then the proposed Hybrid EVolution series, which if built will use the molten salt design. The Powerhauls are not full on hybrids but only recover some of the braking energy which is used to run the fans, air compressor, ect. much like some of the recent Brookville locomotive designs.
The super batteries that GE is developing, as you point out, have an operating temperture of several hundred degrees and it's almost certain they would never be allowed in an aircraft application..

Lest anyone get the wrong idea, my comment about GE batteries was tongue-in-cheek and was more of a generalized "Hey, they make batteries!" comment than a comment or suggestion about their molten salt batteries. Just sayin'.

I don't see where you mentioned the Durathon being used in anything?? I took it as a joke as intended.

The GETS website (link from the GE entry on the index page to railroad.net forums) has (dated 15.ii.2013) a link to an article, in French, in some Belgian publication about the Euroloco project. Items:
---To be built in Turkey: so it's the non-British-loading-gauge version of the Powerhaul. (Also a reference to this "blue and red" locomotive: the demonstrator GE has been showing around.)
---Initial customer is not the Belgian national railway (which already has enough locomotives, thank you, and an unprofitable freight business) but a private company (European competition-fostering rules allow private operators to run trains on public tracks: "open access") hoping to run freight from Belgium (???Port of Antwerp???) into Germany. This will involve running diesel locomotives under wires, but different countries in Europe have different overhead electrification systems, often requiring engine changes at borders(*), so a diesel may be competitive.
---GE's rail business lines include signalling as well as locomotives, and they are looking eagerly at the European market here.
---GE's rail (GETS?) business is a small but profitable part of GE: revenues of 5.6 billion Euros with a billion profit, out of a total corporate revenue of 147 billion Euros. Among potential European competitors in the railroad supply industry, only Alstom comes anywhere close.
---My French has degenerated over the decades (and the "Oeuvres Philosophiques de Descartes" may not have all the same idioms as modern business journalism).
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(*) Or, I suppose, special locomotives equipped for multiple systems: what the French call "locomotives bicourantes" or "tricourantes." But I suppose the first cost of a locomotive that can feed on different kinds of electricity might be enough to make somebody ask the question "Diesel?"

Allen Hazen wrote:The GETS website (link from the GE entry on the index page to railroad.net forums) has (dated 15.ii.2013) a link to an article, in French, in some Belgian publication about the Euroloco project.

Non-relevant parts cut

---Initial customer is not the Belgian national railway (which already has enough locomotives, thank you, and an unprofitable freight business) but a private company (European competition-fostering rules allow private operators to run trains on public tracks: "open access") hoping to run freight from Belgium (???Port of Antwerp???) into Germany. This will involve running diesel locomotives under wires, but different countries in Europe have different overhead electrification systems, often requiring engine changes at borders(*), so a diesel may be competitive.

The problem here is the size of the likely order versus the very significant costs to get a new type of locomotive certified in each country in which it will operate. Also even if GE speculatively decides to swallow the associated costs, there is only a low chance that that larger orders will follow. Germany is gradually installing infill electrification into areas that currently depend on diesels (i.e. Chemnitz - Nürnberg mainline), (München - Lindau mainline).

(*) Or, I suppose, special locomotives equipped for multiple systems: what the French call "locomotives bicourantes" or "tricourantes." But I suppose the first cost of a locomotive that can feed on different kinds of electricity might be enough to make somebody ask the question "Diesel?"

Multi-system electric locomotives are now as ubiquitous as ES44ACs are in the US. The big three European builders all offer a standard modular electric able to be equipped to operate under any combination of the four main electrification systems (15kV and 25kV AC, and 1.5kV and 3kV DC) and the various pantograph widths and contact types are only a slightly bigger problem. What is a bigger problem is the incompatible train safety systems, and that afflicts the diesels just as much as the electrics.

John Beaulieu

John Beaulieu--
Well, incompatible cab signal and trainstop systems would ALSO be a problem, but the article quotes "Krikor Aghajanian, manager sales locomotives&modernizations de GE Transportation" (hmm... "manager sales" sounds like English to me, but "de" GE Transportation: I suppose reporting on international business can leave a journalist linguistically confused!) as mentioning differences in voltage ("tensions") between different railways as a major problem.

I believe the customer wants to run coal trains. Perhaps, even if all the mainline track used in two or more European countries was electrified, using a diesel would make economic sense if the last fraction of a mile of track involved -- the unloading loop at an electric generating plant, say -- was not?

For reference:
The article (in French)from the Belgian source:
http://trends.levif.be/economie/actuali ... 643428.htm

En anglais, an article from "Railway Age" (also linked from the GETS website) about the Eurolocomotive:
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/mec ... Ftqg2jCqfQ
(My remark in my last post that the customer wanted to use them on coal trains was based on this article.)

JayBee's arguments that GE should not expect a flood of orders from the main European railways are certainly plausible, but perhaps GE and Tuolomsas think they can make a profit from a trickle of small orders from "Open Access" companies. Certainly if they get a few large orders -- I don't think that TCDD (Turkish state railway) has announced a commitment yet, but they are a growing system with lengthy non-electrified routes, and I am sure Tuolomsas HOPES for domestic orders! -- a trickle of small additional orders would be a nice supplement.

We'll have to wait and see.

And, my apologies to any Turkish speakers who may look at this forum: I have been mis-spelling the name of TCDD's "affiliated corporation," the locomotive builder Tülomsas. It has apparently been around for a while, having started as a repair shop for one of the Turkish railways before WW I. They eventually worked up to being able to build complete steam locomotives (TCDD operated steam into the 1980s, I think). The partnership with GE to build Powerhaul locomotives is not their first locomotive "technology transfer" arrangement: TCDD's DE 22000 and DE 33000locomotive classes are basically EMD G-26 and GT-26 designs (in American terms: export models of much lighter weight, but with the working parts of SD-38 and SD-40 respectively). (TCDD seems to have about 170 of these EMD-ish units, about equally divided between the two models, and perhaps roughly the same number of DE 24000, a French design with a ca. 2000 hp Pielstick engine, built by Tülomsas under a similar licensing arrangement. These three classes are apparently the core of their freight diesel fleet. All are quite old designs, and I am sure GE and Tülomsas are hoping to convince TCDD management to replace them...)

The "Powerhaul" class 70(That's what the Brits call them)does not use the EVO prime mover,it uses a european designed
Prime mover that was tested and installed by the gang at Erie. Not sure if "Freightliner"(a British freight operating Co)
has done any follow up orders for more class 70's.

Backshophoss--
I haven't heard of any follow-up orders from Freightliner, but that may not be a sign of dissatisfaction: even the largest British rail freight operators are closer to a large U.S. "regional" than to one of our big Class 1's in size, and so they regularly go several years between locomotive orders.