Phoenix to Tucson Rail study

Via the Ohio Higher Education Rail Network Facebook page: Phoenix to Tucson commuter rail proposal. http://www.azdot.gov/planning/CurrentSt ... l/overview" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Two of their alternatives follow freeways (I-10 and a proposed North-South Freeway), while the third follows the ex-SP Union Pacific between the cities. Anyone else here have more info?

AZDOT seeking feedback: ABC15

That's a LOT of $$$ (emphasis added below):

ADOT looking for comment on Tucson-Phoenix passenger rail
<SNIP>
State transportation planners who studied multiple options for proposed passenger train service between Phoenix and Tucson are recommending one that would follow largely existing freight railroad tracks and serve both Sky Harbor International Airport in Phoenix and downtown Tucson.

A draft environmental impact statement released by the Arizona Department of Transportation last week recommends routing passenger trains generally along existing Union Pacific Corp. tracks north of Eloy in southern Pinal County and along UP tracks and Interstate 10 between Eloy and Tucson.

It also envisions possible future extensions from downtown Tucson to Tucson International Airport and from central Phoenix to locations west and northwest of downtown.

ADOT is recommending the yellow alternative, which travels mainly along existing rail lines and would cost between $4.2 and $5.1 billion. It has the highest projected ridership, at 5 million passengers by 2035.

Jeff Smith wrote:AZDOT seeking feedback: ABC15

$4.2 and $5.1 billion is a lot of money for one commuter rail line. It's 116 miles between downtown Phoenix and downtown Tucson, so the average costs will be between $36.2 million and $43.9 million per mile. Which is around twice as much than most recent commuter rail lines. The only one around the same capital cost per mile is eBART. I believe eBART will be mostly double track, while all the others on the recent list are mostly single track lines. Hopefully Arizona will be laying double track as that would account for the relative high price tag.

Recent examples:
DMUs:
eBART: 10 miles at $463 million, averaging $46.3 million per mile. (State already owned right-of-way, are laying all brand new track)
SMART: 43 miles at $438 million, averaging $10.2 million per mile. (State already owned right-of-way, are laying all brand new track)
DCTA: 21 miles at $320 million, averaging $15.2 million per mile. (Did not buy right-of-way, leasing it from DART which bought it decades earlier, did lay all brand new track)
CapMetro: 32 miles at $120 million, averaging $3.75 million per mile. (Already owned right-of-way, but did not lay all brand new track)
WES: 14 miles at $166 million, averaging $11.9 million per mile. (Did buy trackage rights for right-of-way, did lay all brand new track)
NCTD Sprinter: 22 miles at $477 million, averaging $21.7 million. (Did buy right-of-way, did lay all brand new track)
Conventional push-pull trains
UTA Frontrunner: 88 miles at $1,461 million, averaging $16.6 million per mile. (Did buy right-of-way, did lay all brand new track)(Note: Phase 1 $611 million, Phase 2 $850 million)
NM Railrunner: 97 miles at $385 million, averaging $4 million per mile. (Did buy right-of-way, but did not lay all brand new track)

That would be the existing UP Gila Sub from Tucson to Picacho(part of UP's southern transconn to LA).
UP's Phoenix Sub(former SP passenger route)Picacho to Phoenix,with possible extensions to Buckeye on UP,
and on BNSF's Phoenix Sub to Wickenburg,
Also an extension to Nogales on the UP from Tucson on the Nogales Sub.
By now the double tracking of the Gila sub has been completed.(on UP's dime).
There's plenty of rail freight that crosses into/out of old Mexico via Nogales gateway.

I've been to Nogales, I can vouch for that. (Fort Huachuca, Sierra Vista).

Tucson to Nogales has become the largest "Snowbird" colony is the desert southwest,around the I-19 corridor.
Plenty of S American produce enters the US thru this gateway as well

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/ph ... w-20744524

A Phoenix-Tucson train route inches toward reality: What to know
The line would run between Tucson and Buckeye three times a day, but the planning stage won't be done until 2028.
...
The passenger train, operated by Amtrak, would cover a 160-mile route between the Phoenix and Tucson areas. The route, which would run partly parallel to Interstate 10, was chosen in 2016. The train would make three round trips a day, traveling at speeds up to 79 mph.

Starting in Tucson, the train would travel along I-10 until Eloy, then dart north to run through Queen Creek, Tempe and Phoenix before ending in Buckeye. A one-way trip would take just less than two hours and 30 minutes with stops in downtown Phoenix, Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport, Tempe, Coolidge and more.
...
The real question is when will the project really start. A passenger rail line between the two cities has been in some stage of development since at least 2011. The current planning phase alone won’t wrap up until mid-2027 at the earliest.
...

Traveling at 79 miles an hour on I-10 between Tucson and Phoenix will get you rear-ended and run over.........

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All they need to do is have UP rebuild the Yucca-Phoenix-Tuscon line with two tracks and get the passenger consists! Easy! I just saved you a ton of money on the planning phase. Stop talking about it and DO IT.

The Phoenix Sub doesn't need two tracks for a potential three trains a day. A couple passing sidings between Picacho and Tempe are more than adequate.

Get some Flirts, and you're set. Double 'em up as needed.

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eolesen wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 2:06 pm The Phoenix Sub doesn't need two tracks for a potential three trains a day. A couple passing sidings between Picacho and Tempe are more than adequate.

Get some Flirts, and you're set. Double 'em up as needed.

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It'll be nice if the FRA can allow FLIRTS to be used in mixed traffic.

eolesen wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 2:06 pm The Phoenix Sub doesn't need two tracks for a potential three trains a day. A couple passing sidings between Picacho and Tempe are more than adequate.

This *is* a freight line we're talking about. Passing sidings with how long they've been stretching freight trains? Yeah, no, two track the entire length, none of this passing siding "we gotta wait for this massively long freight to pass us" BS.

But seriously, I'm looking more longer term, for a Yuma-Welton-Montezuma-Gillespie-Buckeye-Phoenix-Tempe-Eloy-Tuscon route that we can detour the Sunset Limited into.

We own property out in Tucson and I spend time out there a few times a year. I consider myself fairly educated on the layout out here. You have:
-Two big cities (5.4m, 1.1m metro)
-Each with an airport, PHX is a big hub
-Each with a major research university (60,000 at ASU, 53,000 at UofA)
-Each with an air force base (luke @ 10k ppl, and Davis Monthan @ 46k ppl)
-Millions of retirees and snowbirds (est 500k snowbirds)
-mostly empty space in between along the UP/I-10 corridor
-light rail in both PHX and TUS to feed a corridor train
-2 hour drive without traffic but that's not true often, I hate I-10 becuase the traffic blows ass. Terrible drivers too.

Here are some conjectures and needs as I see it
-5-6 trains per day in each direction (6am, 9am, noon, 3pm, 6pm, 11pm?) If you have to wait too long between trains, folks will drive.
-Zero tie-in with the Sunset/Amtrak. This is for moving people, students, service members, business persons, and seniors around. They fly in and have immediate needs like meetings and sports games.
-There is a lot of space to build next to UP without using UP trackage
-In those empty areas in-between (picacho, red rock, marana) you could build transit-oriented retirement communities so potential passengers could fly in from NYC, Chicago, etc.. and take a train from Sky Harbor to their condo, thus creating intermediate traffic in addition to realizing existing traffic potential
-Folow the brightline model - don't make a lot of stops, this is not a local nor a tourist train, you don't need big food service

This is possibly the best potential corridor for a new service in North America given the population, tourists, students and service members, route length, and open space in-between.


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Don’t forget Sierra Vista, home to the US Army Intelligence School. Yes I’ve been there.

Tadman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 11:27 am We own property out in Tucson and I spend time out there a few times a year. I consider myself fairly educated on the layout out here. You have:
-Two big cities (5.4m, 1.1m metro)
-Each with an airport, PHX is a big hub
-Each with a major research university (60,000 at ASU, 53,000 at UofA)
-Each with an air force base (luke @ 10k ppl, and Davis Monthan @ 46k ppl)
-Millions of retirees and snowbirds (est 500k snowbirds)
-mostly empty space in between along the UP/I-10 corridor
-light rail in both PHX and TUS to feed a corridor train
-2 hour drive without traffic but that's not true often, I hate I-10 becuase the traffic blows ass. Terrible drivers too.

Here are some conjectures and needs as I see it
-5-6 trains per day in each direction (6am, 9am, noon, 3pm, 6pm, 11pm?) If you have to wait too long between trains, folks will drive.
-Zero tie-in with the Sunset/Amtrak. This is for moving people, students, service members, business persons, and seniors around. They fly in and have immediate needs like meetings and sports games.
-There is a lot of space to build next to UP without using UP trackage
-In those empty areas in-between (picacho, red rock, marana) you could build transit-oriented retirement communities so potential passengers could fly in from NYC, Chicago, etc.. and take a train from Sky Harbor to their condo, thus creating intermediate traffic in addition to realizing existing traffic potential
-Folow the brightline model - don't make a lot of stops, this is not a local nor a tourist train, you don't need big food service

This is possibly the best potential corridor for a new service in North America given the population, tourists, students and service members, route length, and open space in-between.

The frequency seems to be about right. AIR David P. Morgan commented way back that to be viable the interval between trains must not exceed the total journey time.
It wouldn't do to start the service with two round trips a day and then conclude after six months that it's a failure because people aren't using it. And having a major city at each end should be a great help.