Passenger Equipped FA-2s and FB-2s

Does anyone have a complete list of ALCO and MLW built passenger equipped FA-2s and FB-2s? I am trying to update the Wikipedia site. Steinbrenner's book shoots holes through everything I have found online.

Thanks,

Ed

Do you mean actual FA's and FB's with steam generators for passenger service, but which were still officially designated FA and FB..

as opposed to FPA and FPB units?
or do you want to include FPA's and FPB's in your list too?

Scot

Both FA-2s and FB-2s and the FPA-2s and FPB-2s.

On page 306 of Centennial Remembrance Steinbrenner gives the FPA-2 count as 58 ALCO built and 19 MLW built for a total of 77 FPA-2s. The FPB-2s are listed as 12 ALCO and 14 MLW for a total of 26 FPB-2s.

The only FPA-2 I could get any kind of information on were the L&N's. these units weighed something like 12,000 pounds more than the L&N's regular FA-2s. The difference is likely in equipment like the steam generator and water tanks.

I've found out through online contacts that B&O had 10 FPA-2s and 6 FPB-2 and that Lehigh Valley had either two or three FPA-2s and an FPB-2. Also the ALCO 1602 Demonstrator set was FPA-2 FPB-2 FPB-2 FPA-2.

Were any of the 12 Cuban FA-2s set up with steam generators? They were in two number series so it seemed likely.

SSW9389 wrote: that Lehigh Valley had either two or three FPA-2s and an FPB-2. Also the ALCO 1602 Demonstrator set was FPA-2 FPB-2 FPB-2 FPA-2.

The Lehigh Valley units were not FPA-2s or FPB-2's.
they were FA-2's and FB-2's that happened to have steam generators..
but no one (Alco, the LV, or anyone) ever labeled them FPA's..

You will find a lot of MLW FPA's in Canadian service..a lot operated around Toronto in commuter service..

here is a VIA RAIL roster I quickly found with google:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/TORONTO/VIAdiesel.html

however I dont know if thats an "all-time" roster, or a roster at a specific point in time.

Scot

All-Time MLW FPA production:
http://www.thedieselshop.us/MLW_FPA.HTML

and all-time Alco FA production:
http://www.thedieselshop.us/AlcoFA1.HTML
although that roster doesnt list which units had steam generators..
the LV units are listed in there, and we know they had steam generators,
but they arent indicated that they did..

here is a thought..
did Alco-Schenectady ever officially build FP units?
and label them as such?
or did they (like the LV units) simply call them "FA's with steam generators"..

perhaps FPA's were only labeled with the P by MLW?
I dont know that for sure..but I do know the LV never had any FPA's..but they did use FA's in passenger service..and they were built at Schenectady.

Scot

The introduction page of ALCO-GE manual TP-402 does in fact include the FPA / FPB designation. To wit:

"This manual covers basic operating instructions to assist the engineman in the efficient handling of the 1600 HP Road Freight-Passenger locomotive models: FA-2, FB-2, FPA-2, FPB-2."

Labeled on that page with both builder's names, the inscription "Printed in U.S.A." and dated October 1950.

All four models are again called out on the General Data table.

-Will Davis

According to Kirkland's Book Diesel Builders Vol 2, whenever the Steam Generators were installed the designation was changed to FPA-2 and FPB-2.

He lists the only FPA-2s built in Schenenctady as 35, with most to Mexico except for 19 to Missouri Pacific. There were only 10 FPB-2s in Schenectady and all went to Mexico. There were 19 FPA-2s and 14 FPB-2s built at MLW. So there is obvious confusion between Kirkland and Steinbrenner.

Here is what Kirkland lists:

ALCO

FA2 DL212 317
FB2 DL213 176
FA-2 DL212A 14
FB-2 DL213A 6
FPA-2 DL212 35
FPB-2 DL213 10

MLW

FA-2 45
FB-2 21
FPA-2 19
FPB-2 14

Interesting that the two differ in their listings, although with provision of the ALCO-GE manual data we can hardly argue the model designations.

A quick look at the manual shows that the diagrams depict the steam generators and associated equipment, with the "B" unit having the steam generator mounted in what would otherwise have been the cab end, or the "A" end in the same manner as was done with the larger 2000 or 2250 HP passenger locomotives. I noted also the arrangement of the fuel and water tanks, and a quick look at the net reveals a couple interesting photos.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo803amm.jpg

The above link, from George Elwood's fabulous site shows an A-B-A lashup of B&O units. The unit on the left does not have a steam generator while the other two do. Note the difference in the underbody tanks and the roof appurtenances. Note roof vents behind radiator on the far end A unit, and note roof vents on the opposite end of the B unit in comparison.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv594as.jpg

The above, same site, is obviously an LV FPA-2. Again note roof appurtenances and the large fuel / water tank. The row of bolts along the bottom is indicative of the dual tanks if photo perspective makes the actual tank dimensions unclear, as in for example in a more head-on or wedge shot.

I looked quickly at a Don Ball book that shows the 1603 set of ALCO-GE demonstrators on the Western Maryland, and they had no steam generators so I looked online and found the 1602 set which apparently does, given the appearance of the underbody tanks, at Northeast Railfan:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/alco1602A.jpg

So then, photographically we can fairly easily figure out what units had, or did not have steam generators even if we can't see the roof and given the ALCO-GE manual we can be sure they're FPA/FPB models officially.

-Will Davis

PS I'm sure many members here know the detail differences, but I thought I'd include all of that for those not up to speed or who didn't know how to tell the difference. Excuse my long-windedness!!

According to Alco in a copy of a letter I have dated November 30, 1965, an up to date listing of model numbers is provided. according to this list, it offers the following explanation:
F= Freight
FP = Freight with steam generator.

Interesting enough, Alco listed a FA-4,FB-4,FPA-4, FPB-4 (last 2 MLW)

Hope this helps.

Typewriters wrote:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv594as.jpg

The above, same site, is obviously an LV FPA-2.

its not a LV FPA-2, because the LV never had any FPA-2's..
its a FA-2 with a steam generator.

So then, photographically we can fairly easily figure out what units had, or did not have steam generators even if we can't see the roof and given the ALCO-GE manual we can be sure they're FPA/FPB models officially.
-Will Davis

no, we cant can be sure they're FPA/FPB models officially..
because regardless of what the ALCO-GE manual says, the LV never had any FPA-2's..

Scot

What do we suppose that an FPA-2 is? When you place a steam generator in the ALCO-GE 1600 HP Road Freight-Passenger unit you end up with the FP designation. Saying that the LV had FA-2's with steam generators not FPA-2's is inherently contradictory. This isn't the same thing as, for example, the EMD F-7 and FP-7 where the FP-7 was longer but where the F-7 could be fitted with a steam generator.

The FP designation applies regardless of gear ratio or application of dynamic brake so long as a steam generator is fitted.

Reviewing posts from 7:35 AM on, we find the following to support the designation of FPA / FPB when steam generators are fitted:

ALCO-GE manual TP-402
ALCO letter dated 1965
John F. Kirkland's book
Steinbrenner's book

It really is hard to understand your assertion, Scot, given all this evidence. What do you have that says the LV units were NOT FPA/FPB units? If the railroad's motive power dept. chose not to delineate the model on its own roster, I could see the confusion. However, the application of this designation by the manufacturer is more than clear.

-Will Davis

As Scot stated, the Valley had no FPA's on their roster. They had FA locomotives. Those FPA locos were most likely sold as "straight" pax units, with pax gearing, and intended strictly for that type of service. The Valley wanted freight motors, to supplement the original order of 10 pairs, and they wanted four axle power. The ability to rescue trains, or run branch lines if needed, was reason enough to order a few pairs with S/G's installed. They were still freight locos, and that's why they were purchased. I believe this would be the difference between them, regardless of having a S/G installed, or not.

As clearly stated by ALCO; A FA unit equipped with a s/g is called a FPA regardless of how the railroad used them. They were still freight units in any case.

Golden-Arm, he stated it but he offered no proof. The opposite view has offered a bunch of proof. All an FPA-2 is is the same locomotive as an FA-2 but with a steam generator. Further, any of these units with a steam generator is an FPA or FPB.

This is like saying that a GP-15T isn't a GP-15T, it's a GP-15 with a turbocharged engine. If the builder changes the model number when internal equipment is changed, then the model number is changed and that's that.

Further, from TP-402: "The 1600 HP Road Freight-Passenger (sic) is a dual purpose locomotive designed for both freight and passenger service. Locomotives not equipped with a steam generator are generally limited to freight service."

That descriptive statement by ALCO-GE tells us that the units were designed for dual service apparently as the Lehigh Valley used them; it was stated earlier that these units were used in both passenger and freight service.

Once again, let me be clear; the manufacturer data indicates that any of these units with a steam generator was an FP. This information is in both the manual and in the letter from ALCO indicated earlier. This is the same conclusion that Kirkland and Steinbrenner reached.

Now, if the LV roster doesn't delineate the units as FPA and FPB then that's purely arbitrary on the Lehigh Valley's part. Someone show us some support for the view that there are manufacturer sub-delineations of units as follows:

FA-2
FB-2
FA-2 with steam generator
FB-2 with steam generator
FPA-2
FPB-2

If you consult the manuals from the builder you'll find out that the last four are the same group; an FA-2 with a steam generator IS an FPA-2!

-Will Davis