• Ontario Midland All Time Roster Discrepancies

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

  by ERIE 360
 
From Wikipedia:
#3 is an Alco S4 built in 1953 & formerly of the Genesee & Wyoming & New York Central (NYC).
#5 was a GE 45-Tonner formerly of the US Army (USATC).
#35 is an Alco S4 built in 1959 formerly of the Genesee & Wyoming (GNWR).
#36 is an Alco RS-11 built on 1957 formerly of the Norfolk & Western (N&W).
#40, now #408, is an Alco RS-36 built in 1962 formerly of the Norfolk & Western.
#106 was an Alco S-2 built in 1948 & formerly of the Baltimore & Ohio (B&O).
#107 was an Alco S4 formerly of the N&W. Today it is at Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum in Rush, New York. It has been re-painted into the Paint scheme of its original owner: the New York, Chicago & St.Louis (Nickel Plate Road (NKP)). The N&W absorbed the NKP in 1965 & sold #107 to OMID.
#4056 was an Alco RS-3 built for the Spokane, Portland & Seattle (SP&S). It was sold by SP&S successor Burlington Northern (BN).
#4085 was also an Alco RS-3 but ex-Delaware & Hudson (D&H).
As far as I understand 107 was never OMID property and instead was purchased by a private individual. What's the scoop?

Here she is today still under private ownership but stored/displayed at the museum in Rush.
Image
  by Otto Vondrak
 
Here's part of "the scoop" from the museum website:

http://rgvrrm.org/about/railroad/nkp79
In 1964, the Nickel Plate Road was purchased by the Norfolk & Western Railway. The unit was painted blue and became their number 2079. The Norfolk & Western retired the unit on December 6, 1974 and it was sold through a dealer to the Wyandotte Terminal Railroad in Michigan in 1976 where it became their number 107. In 1982, it was sold to RSA Leasing in Sodus, New York. They leased it to the Allegheny Southern Railroad in Pennsylvania where it became their number 17. The unit was returned to Sodus, New York in 1985. In September, 1987, it was purchased and moved to the Museum by members of the Rochester Chapter NRHS. In 1993 and 1994, it was restored to its original Nickel Plate paint scheme and number.
-otto-
  by Lehighton_Man
 
I do believe a chapter member owns #79. I have met the owner, a very nice guy. It has been a while since #79 has been cranked though. (last I knew...)
  by CRHauf
 
#79 remains privately owned. #79 was operated in 2008, but was not run in 2009 due to other commitments by the owner. We will see what 2010 brings. The engine is properly stored so taking a year off is really not a big deal.

Regards,
Chris
  by jr
 
The Wikipedia entry regarding that locomotive is incorrect. The information on the Rochester Chapter website, as noted by Otto, is correct to the best of our knowledge.

The website below also gives some further information regarding its usage on the Allegheny Southern in Pennsylvania from 1982 through 1984.

http://www.bbandbrr.com/asrw/roster/17.aspx

It returned to Sodus after the Everett RR took over that branchline (early '85?). It carried that paint and number(Allegheny Southern #17) at Sodus, during the period from '85 through its sale in September of '87.

It is our understanding that #17 was used occasionally by OMID during this time.


JR
  by Alcophile
 
I wrote that and apologise, I received my information from thedieselshop.us and that what was posted on their website. Other rosters on that website are accurate so I had good reason to believe that 107 had in fact been owned by the OMID.
  by Lehighton_Man
 
I see the 2 RS3s on the Roster... What ever happened to those units? Were they scrapped?
  by Otto Vondrak
 
Lehighton_Man wrote:I see the 2 RS3s on the Roster... What ever happened to those units? Were they scrapped?
Remember that at one time the Ontario Lines shared management and resources. The 4085 was built for D&H, went to ONCT, and then to the DL, who in turn sold it to New York & Greenwood Lake and is now their 935.

4056 was built for Spokane, Portland & Seattle, and went to Burlington Northern in 1970. Went to Ontario Midland, and later sold to Cuyahoga Scenic in Ohio, I understand they use it as a parts source.

How did I know all this? I went to Google and searched "ONCT 4085" and "SP&S 4056" and got several results. Sometimes it takes a little digging to find what you're looking for, but it's out there!

-otto-
  by scottychaos
 
Lehighton_Man wrote:I see the 2 RS3s on the Roster... What ever happened to those units? Were they scrapped?
#4056 was an Alco RS-3 built for the Spokane, Portland & Seattle (SP&S). It was sold by SP&S successor Burlington Northern (BN).
#4085 was also an Alco RS-3 but ex-Delaware & Hudson (D&H).
4085 was most likely D&H 4085.
(Scot heads over to google)
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/dl.html

D&H 4085
b/n 80175, blt. 1952
nee D&H 4085
to Ontario Central 4085
to GVT (DL or Depew Lancaster & Western) 4085
to New York & Greenwood Lake RR 935
Today is NYGL 935, still operating! :P
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=1735276

SP&S 71
b/n 79594
blt 01/52
nee SP&S 71 (January 1952)
to BN 4056 (March 1970)
to Conrail (leased) (may 1976)
to Chrome Crankshaft (September 1980)
to OMID 4056 (September 1980)
to Cuyahoga Valley Line 4056 (in 1988)
to Cuyahoga Scenic 4056
was seen as a parts unit in 1990.
Scrapped 1995

http://spsry.railfan.net/diesel.html
http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr820.htm
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 25&t=51995
http://www.tamr.org/Andy_Inserra/CVSR_ROSTER.xls

Scot
  by mdevall1
 
I know that it has been quite awhile since this thread was active, but there have been a couple changes to the Ontario Midland roster recently. First off, Engine #14 wasn't included which was operated by the Ontario Central Railroad. It was a 1947 ALCO S-2, orignally Buffalo Creek Railroad Engine #46. According to Don's Rail Photos, OMID purchased the engine from them. I believe, though, that the New York & Lake Erie Railroad was the actual second owner as it was still numbered Engine #46 under their ownership. The locomotive was in Buffalo when Ontario Midland purchased it. Under operation by ONCT, it was Engine #14. In 1984, the locomotive was sold to Tioga Central Railroad...still as Engine #14. I believe the last owner of the engine was the Livonia, Avon and Lakeville Railroad.

As I previously mentioned on another thread, OMID purchased Engine #3560 from the West Tennessee Railroad last year. I don't think it is in service yet, but the engine was recently painted and lettered. Based on what was mentioned on the latest New York State List of Freight Rail Infrastructure Investments (2022) for OMID regarding using the funds towards the replacement of an older switch locomotive, I expect that Engine #3 is to be retired once Engine #3560 is in service as it is the oldest of their current roster.

Also...if there is anything on the OMID history or roster posted on Wikipedia that needs to be changed of updated, please let me know and I can take care of that. I've primarily updated the roster moreso than the history section, though. Unlike some editors, I prefer to keep things summarized rather than have it in major details. Anyways, the only thing I would need is reliable references for article changes as they have to be cited under their guidelines. Thanks.
  by mdevall1
 
Otto Vondrak wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:33 am
Lehighton_Man wrote:I see the 2 RS3s on the Roster... What ever happened to those units? Were they scrapped?
Remember that at one time the Ontario Lines shared management and resources. The 4085 was built for D&H, went to ONCT, and then to the DL, who in turn sold it to New York & Greenwood Lake and is now their 935.

4056 was built for Spokane, Portland & Seattle, and went to Burlington Northern in 1970. Went to Ontario Midland, and later sold to Cuyahoga Scenic in Ohio, I understand they use it as a parts source.

How did I know all this? I went to Google and searched "ONCT 4085" and "SP&S 4056" and got several results. Sometimes it takes a little digging to find what you're looking for, but it's out there!

-otto-
While Engine #4085 was under ownership of ONCT through the Ontario Lines, it was actually operated by subsidiary Ontario Eastern Railroad (ONER) during the time there.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPi ... ?id=118290

Also...if anyone noticed, Engine #4056 was the only locomotive operated by OMID that wasn't fully painted black. The topside was painted black, though. It primarily remained in the colors of previous owner Burlington Northern (green and white) when sold to CVL. I find that interesting.
  by BR&P
 
OK, let me see if I can contribute to this. It may be a bit lengthy so grab a coffee or adult beverage and let's sort it out. :wink:

First off, it will be necessary to clarify what you mean by "Ontario Midland roster". Are you listing locomotives OWNED by OMID, or those LETTERED for OMID, or those which OPERATED on OMID? It sounds like being picky, but that distinction can affect greatly what we come up with. Also, the sequence on the following acquisitions may be off, they may have bought X BEFORE Y despite my saying the opposite.

Shortline railroads are quite often short on cash, especially at start-up. And with a new company which may or may not survive, people can be reluctant to invest their money. So as OMID was created, a separate company was formed, RSA Leasing. The plan was for RSAL to purchase locomotives and other equipment and lease it to OMID and ONCT (and others as well) at below the typical rates. This helped the new companies get better power than their finances would have allowed, yet protected the investors - if OMID had gone belly-up, the locos could have been sold off to recoup the investment. RSAL was a separate corporate entity, some OMID shareholders also invested in RSAL, some did not. Likewise some RSAL investors did, and some did not invest in OMID (and ONCT).

As the companies were planned, RSAL bought 3 locos from N&W - 361 and 408 were sent to OMID, 2865 went to ONCT. For simplicity, they were shortened to 36, 40 and 86. And here's where that thing about how you define the roster comes into play. A year or two after startup, 86 needed some TLC which needed to be done in the Sodus shop. The 40 went to Victor, the 86 went to OMID. And while 40 WAS lettered for ONCT, the 86 was never relettered OMID. Regardless, 86 stayed on OMID for quite some time, and was used in regular service there. There are pics of 86 switching at Marion NY, before that branch was abandoned. Eventually 86 went back to Victor and 40 returned to OMID and was re-stencilled for OMID.

Regarding #14, it was never owned by, nor used on, Ontario Midland. When Conrail was formed, it went from BCK 46 to CR 9662, before being purchased by RSAL and sent to Victor. It was used in service on ONCT, and in fact it was pictured in a newspaper article about the first car being delivered to Dekalb Agresearch, just west of the Rt 332 overpass. It was still in its BCK Bicentennial paint. For a time RSAL had renumbered it back to 46. It was leased - NOT sold - to NY&LE for a time, then returned.

At a date I can't say from memory, the two Wyandotte Terminal switchers were purchased by RSAL and sent to Sodus. #17, the former NKP 79, was turned out fairly soon and sent to Allegheny Southern Railway. The former B&O engine became OMID 16, and did operate on OMID, lettered for OMID, but owned by RSAL (and still in orange, not black).

With the two switchers being 16 and 17, the former BCK 46 was renumbered to 14. Why it was not designated 15 I don't know. The unit was cleaned, prepped and painted at Victor. As lettering was being done by ONCT guys on their own time, a rush demand for its use at North American Car Co's Sayre shop sent it away with only one side bearing the "Ontario Lines" lettering.

Ontario Lines started with OMID and ONCT. The Ontario Eastern was added, and both Allegheny Southern and Jersey Southern were subsidiaries of ONER. Eventually those 3 ceased operations and only the original 2 lines remained. Eventually it was decided that the two railroads would acquire the 3 original locos respectively, and RSA Leasing was dissolved. Only at that point did OMID actually own the engines.

And if you want to define "roster" as locos that pulled trains on OMID, there are at least 3 more. Golden Spike Railroad Services had some GP9's off lease which were sent to OMID. Both GSRX 5913 and 6145 were used on OMID freights in testing after work. They were not owned, leased nor lettered for OMID but DID perform work on the line, in fact the last train to ever leave Red Creek NY was pulled by GSRX 5913 (before its repaint out of C&O colors) And Golden Spike also owned coaches, and operated many excursions over OMID using the Geeps over the course of at least 2 years. And separately, a different OMID employee, George Hockaday, lovingly repainted a CN FPA4 into D&H colors. This, too, was used on various freight and passenger runs, altho a very brief time. The change in management, coupled with the split of the OMID and ONCT, ended the operation of these colorful additions to the OMID's history.

Hopefully this has not put too may to sleep, but keeping facts straight and history accurate requires getting the details as precise as possible.
  by mdevall1
 
BR&P wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:05 am OK, let me see if I can contribute to this. It may be a bit lengthy so grab a coffee or adult beverage and let's sort it out. :wink:

First off, it will be necessary to clarify what you mean by "Ontario Midland roster". Are you listing locomotives OWNED by OMID, or those LETTERED for OMID, or those which OPERATED on OMID? It sounds like being picky, but that distinction can affect greatly what we come up with. Also, the sequence on the following acquisitions may be off, they may have bought X BEFORE Y despite my saying the opposite.

Shortline railroads are quite often short on cash, especially at start-up. And with a new company which may or may not survive, people can be reluctant to invest their money. So as OMID was created, a separate company was formed, RSA Leasing. The plan was for RSAL to purchase locomotives and other equipment and lease it to OMID and ONCT (and others as well) at below the typical rates. This helped the new companies get better power than their finances would have allowed, yet protected the investors - if OMID had gone belly-up, the locos could have been sold off to recoup the investment. RSAL was a separate corporate entity, some OMID shareholders also invested in RSAL, some did not. Likewise some RSAL investors did, and some did not invest in OMID (and ONCT).

As the companies were planned, RSAL bought 3 locos from N&W - 361 and 408 were sent to OMID, 2865 went to ONCT. For simplicity, they were shortened to 36, 40 and 86. And here's where that thing about how you define the roster comes into play. A year or two after startup, 86 needed some TLC which needed to be done in the Sodus shop. The 40 went to Victor, the 86 went to OMID. And while 40 WAS lettered for ONCT, the 86 was never relettered OMID. Regardless, 86 stayed on OMID for quite some time, and was used in regular service there. There are pics of 86 switching at Marion NY, before that branch was abandoned. Eventually 86 went back to Victor and 40 returned to OMID and was re-stencilled for OMID.

Regarding #14, it was never owned by, nor used on, Ontario Midland. When Conrail was formed, it went from BCK 46 to CR 9662, before being purchased by RSAL and sent to Victor. It was used in service on ONCT, and in fact it was pictured in a newspaper article about the first car being delivered to Dekalb Agresearch, just west of the Rt 332 overpass. It was still in its BCK Bicentennial paint. For a time RSAL had renumbered it back to 46. It was leased - NOT sold - to NY&LE for a time, then returned.

At a date I can't say from memory, the two Wyandotte Terminal switchers were purchased by RSAL and sent to Sodus. #17, the former NKP 79, was turned out fairly soon and sent to Allegheny Southern Railway. The former B&O engine became OMID 16, and did operate on OMID, lettered for OMID, but owned by RSAL (and still in orange, not black).

With the two switchers being 16 and 17, the former BCK 46 was renumbered to 14. Why it was not designated 15 I don't know. The unit was cleaned, prepped and painted at Victor. As lettering was being done by ONCT guys on their own time, a rush demand for its use at North American Car Co's Sayre shop sent it away with only one side bearing the "Ontario Lines" lettering.

Ontario Lines started with OMID and ONCT. The Ontario Eastern was added, and both Allegheny Southern and Jersey Southern were subsidiaries of ONER. Eventually those 3 ceased operations and only the original 2 lines remained. Eventually it was decided that the two railroads would acquire the 3 original locos respectively, and RSA Leasing was dissolved. Only at that point did OMID actually own the engines.

And if you want to define "roster" as locos that pulled trains on OMID, there are at least 3 more. Golden Spike Railroad Services had some GP9's off lease which were sent to OMID. Both GSRX 5913 and 6145 were used on OMID freights in testing after work. They were not owned, leased nor lettered for OMID but DID perform work on the line, in fact the last train to ever leave Red Creek NY was pulled by GSRX 5913 (before its repaint out of C&O colors) And Golden Spike also owned coaches, and operated many excursions over OMID using the Geeps over the course of at least 2 years. And separately, a different OMID employee, George Hockaday, lovingly repainted a CN FPA4 into D&H colors. This, too, was used on various freight and passenger runs, altho a very brief time. The change in management, coupled with the split of the OMID and ONCT, ended the operation of these colorful additions to the OMID's history.

Hopefully this has not put too may to sleep, but keeping facts straight and history accurate requires getting the details as precise as possible.
The roster listed on the article for Ontario Midland Railroad on Wikipedia, even before I made updates and changes, apparently includes those that were lettered for OMID and the Ontario Lines which includes Ontario Central, Ontario Eastern, Jersey Southern and Allegheny Southern as you mentioned. Yes...things can be vague. There are some other railroad articles on Wikipedia, such as the FLGK and LAL, that also have a roster section which may also not have everything included.

Also...I don't live in New York anymore, so my access to newspaper articles is limited other than what is online. In general, those tend to be used more for genealogy purposes than anything else from how I access them although there is much more than that included in the postings as I have used some for historical research.

I do thank you for the additional details, though. It is helpful in knowing more of the history of the Ontario Lines.


EDIT: There are a couple of instances where I mentioned posts from another thread. I believe that I've made 13 posts on the forum so far, but only two have been approved. Therefore, some haven't shown up on here yet. I believe that some moderators of their respective sections have been MIA for a time. Hopefully, some of my other posts will show up soon enough. I've only been registered on the forum for a week, so things may take time.
Last edited by mdevall1 on Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.