Old Railroad Stations and Radar Detectors (Question)

Hello everyone,

I'm living in Goshen, NY and am familiar with some Erie line history through here. As most know the line has been dead since 1983-4, and is now the village police station. I remember as recently as 2001 (when I first moved away) that the old signal block outside was still lit up (red).

I returned just recently back home (June 2007) and havent noticed it lit up yet - I'm sure there's a reasonable explaination, like the bulb finally died. I did however encounter something wierd when driving home (past the station) one day: As my car was facing the station, driving towards it, my radar detector went off saying "train approaching". It was around 11:30am on a Saturday, but none the less wierd since nothing's been through there in over 20 yrs. I shrugged it off - must've been a rougue reading.

Two weeks later it happens again. Same time, same day (Saturday). A few weeks after that, same thing. So now I have three instances of the same day and around the same time of this happening.

I've been trying to research anything I can on the web - how signals work (thinking they never disconnected it, but did they have that technology back then? And even so, would they employ it at a station they had on the chopping block?)......I've even searched for old schedules through the old Erie line in 1983. I can't find anything.

Anyone have ideas? Nearest train station now is MN's (ok, so NJT's) in Campbell Hall (East) or Middletown (Northwest), each over 7 mi away.....but even so I was facing South.

Thanks!

The detection of a signal is set with a positive and a negitive rail the locomotive makes the cross connection when it enters the block turning the signals on and off. If the signals are always on then there protecting a junction of some sort and they will only change color letting on comeing traffic know if its safe or not to keep moveing. At the most part all signals are wired from ground stations and not from remote or radar type equipment as far as I know.

Not sure if I 100% understood your reply, but if I did I wanted to clarify something. I dont think that my radar detector is setting off the signal.....I was more looking at if there was possibly some signal still coming from the old station or maybe signal box, etc that would set off the radar detector.

The response from my radar detector those three times was "Train Approaching"...

A few years ago, radar detector manufacturers came up with a safety alert system that would display warnings for emergency vehicles, road hazards and trains. The detector responds to signals in the 24 GHZ band that would be sent by special transmitters.

In the case of emergency vehicles, it requires that a transmitter be installed on every emergency vehicle that would be activated when the vehicle's emergency lights are flashing. Road hazard warning signs would be equipped with road hazard alert transmitters. I never saw any information on how the train warning was supposed to work but I beleive it depends on the railroad installing a transmitter at each crossing that is activated by the crossing lights or gates. The alternative of installing a transmitter on every locomotive seems ridiculous.

I do not know if any railroad has adopted this technology. I think there would be all sorts of liability issues if some idiot decided to drive around the gates because his radar detector did not confirm a train was approaching.

Radar detectors are notorious for false alerts from any nearby source of microwave energy. Building burglar alarm systems or microwave communications devices will frequently cause an alert when you drive by a particular building.

I think it is a coincidence that you get the alert at a train station.

JustCurious wrote:Hello everyone,

I'm living in Goshen, NY and am familiar with some Erie line history through here. As most know the line has been dead since 1983-4, and is now the village police station. I remember as recently as 2001 (when I first moved away) that the old signal block outside was still lit up (red).

I returned just recently back home (June 2007) and havent noticed it lit up yet - I'm sure there's a reasonable explaination, like the bulb finally died. I did however encounter something wierd when driving home (past the station) one day: As my car was facing the station, driving towards it, my radar detector went off saying "train approaching". It was around 11:30am on a Saturday, but none the less wierd since nothing's been through there in over 20 yrs. I shrugged it off - must've been a rougue reading.

Two weeks later it happens again. Same time, same day (Saturday). A few weeks after that, same thing. So now I have three instances of the same day and around the same time of this happening.

I've been trying to research anything I can on the web - how signals work (thinking they never disconnected it, but did they have that technology back then? And even so, would they employ it at a station they had on the chopping block?)......I've even searched for old schedules through the old Erie line in 1983. I can't find anything.

Anyone have ideas? Nearest train station now is MN's (ok, so NJT's) in Campbell Hall (East) or Middletown (Northwest), each over 7 mi away.....but even so I was facing South.

Thanks!

I would bet there is a police car parked near the police station with a radar
unit in the car and on, maybe nobody in the car but the radar unit might
still be on, I'll bet that is what you are picking up.
If not that, maybe there is a radar unit in the old station in a window or
some other hidden location.
If not that, maybe there is a vehicle activated traffic signal nearby that
has a radar unit to activate the signal.
Noel Weaver

Thanks for the ideas guys.

Yes, whenever I drive by the police station the cars do usually leave their radars on. I know this because my K-alert always comes on as I'm driving closer....and because I have family and friends who have been police officers there for years (its a small town ). But the K and Ka alerts are a different tone, plus my Cobra tells me [beep, beep] "K Alert" [beep, beep...] and the train one sends out a wierd, long 'taser' sound interrupted with "Train Alert - Use Caution". So I'm definitely not confusing the two.

We are a three traffic light town.....and none are close to the police station. So that kills that theory too.

I did some checking for information on this radar detector safety alert technology and found this FCC rule making that authorized it:

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Wireless/Ord ... c99009.txt

It seems that the railroad approaching train feature was an afterthought and was supported by Clarendon & Pittford and Vermont Railway.

Safety alert transmitters can either send a 24.1 GHz unmodulated signal that the radar detector would report as K-band police radar or a specially modulated signal with a unique tone that would identify it as emergency vehicle, road hazard or train. I can't find any details on the specific tones involved. I think Cobra holds a patent on the technology.

Since radar detectors are broadband devices that respond to a wide range of microwave signals, I suspect you are picking up some microwave device that happens to have the same modulating signal as the train alert.

so , nobody else believes in ghost trains then

A ghost train with EMD "super-series" wheel creep/slip control. The system used an underframe mounted radar transceiver.

I found a patent for the radar safety alert system with a description of how it works.

Regular police K-band radar operates at a nominal frequency of 24.125 Ghz +/- .125 GHz. If the detector receives a single frequency signal within this range it gives a K Band radar alert.

The safety alert transmitter would generate 2 simulatneous signals on slightly different frequencies and the detector measures the frequency difference to determine the type of alert.

24.230 and 24.070 (difference .160) = Road Hazard
24.230 and 24.110 (difference .120) = Emergency Vehicle
24.230 and 24.190 (difference .040) = other hazard (Train?)

It is very likely that 2 police radar units could differ by about .040 in frequency a trigger an alert. Maybe you were picking up 2 police car radars or any other 2 devices radiating K band signals.

Nelson Bay wrote:A ghost train with EMD "super-series" wheel creep/slip control. The system used an underframe mounted radar transceiver.

And the ground radar is still used on current EMD's as well. I have gotten stray hits on my detector when passing locomotives in the yard.

Good Lord, my hair is standing up.

I just came upon this forum tonight after searching the internet to possibly determine why I heard a train engine and horn at 10:30 Tuesday night 9/11/12 when the closest active line is over three miles from my home (Norfolk Southern/NJ Transit). I recalled something that I experienced a few years ago and found JustCurious's post here. I had the EXACT SAME THING happen to me in Goshen, NY a couple years ago!! To clarify, the railroad tracks were pulled out and paved over years and years ago. In fact, I have lived here since a small child in 1969 and never remember seeing tracks in Goshen. The only way someone can tell there might have been tracks there is as Just Curious mentioned, the police station is housed in what was the old train station.

I was driving through Goshen, NY on a bright, sunny Saturday morning running errands. I turned right at a corner just past the post office (heading away from the police station) and my Cobra detector starting bleating 'Train Approaching.' It is a distinctly different alarm than all the others, in fact I had never heard it before - and have not had it go off since then. It took me several moments first to realize what I was hearing and then recovering from being momentarily confused over why I was hearing it. The closest operational tracks are, as mentioned, in Campbell Hall - nearby for sure but way too far for my detector to register. Also oddly, none of the active tracks in Orange County NY - or anywhere else in the greater NYC metro area I have traveled on over the years - have ever elicited this alarm for me. I was so astonished by the alarm I had to pull over, park and wait for the adrenaline rush to stop so my hands would stop shaking and tingling.

My understanding was that the vehicles that emit these warnings (police cars, ambulances, train engines) are fitted with the beacon apparatus, NOT the tracks (which in JustCurious's case and mine were non-existent).

My family and friends told me I was imagining things. I never thought I would ever run across someone else who experienced the same thing in the same place as I did.

You folks are all CRAZY! Why, I was in Goshen last year and this didn't happen to me.

Oh, wait. I don't own a radar detector. Nevermind, carry on.

I do kinda like this explanation:

It is very likely that 2 police radar units could differ by about .040 in frequency a trigger an alert. Maybe you were picking up 2 police car radars or any other 2 devices radiating K band signals.

RussNelson wrote:You folks are all CRAZY! Why, I was in Goshen last year and this didn't happen to me.

Oh, wait. I don't own a radar detector. Nevermind, carry on.

I do kinda like this explanation:

It is very likely that 2 police radar units could differ by about .040 in frequency a trigger an alert. Maybe you were picking up 2 police car radars or any other 2 devices radiating K band signals.

Or two automatic door opener sensors.