NYC RR in Dubois

Anyone aware of photos of NYC steam (or diesel) exercising their trackage rights through Dubois or Falls Creek area on BR&P (B&O) ?

Cactus Jack wrote:Anyone aware of photos of NYC steam (or diesel) exercising their trackage rights through Dubois or Falls Creek area on BR&P (B&O) ?

Coincidental timing on your post - I recently learned that coming from the east, (for example on their Beech Creek RR) NYC used the BR&P from Clearfield through Curwensville (CB Junction for NYC Cherry Tree and related coal branches), on to C&M Jct and then DuBois and Falls Creek on the BR&P, where the NYC got on the PRR for a short way to connect to their lines west via the Franklin Division. Connecting with the Reading in Newberry, it was a back door for traffic between Philadelphia and Cleveland . Anyway, best I can do after 10 minutes is only come up with Penn Central coming off the BR&P at CB Junction near Curwensville onto ex NYC trackage. http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/m/x/m ... yTree.html
I'll keep looking... JS
EDIT: Found two poor resolution views of steam engines at the BRP DuBois station. Maybe a steam expert can tell if they are NYC or BRP engines: http://www.west2k.com/papix/dubois.jpg

In addition to the NYC using the BR&P from Clearfield to CB Jct. on the BR&P's C&M Branch, the NYC also exercised trackage rights over the C&M Branch from Clearfield to C&M Jct., thence west on the main line to just the other side of Cloe to connect with its Rossiter trackage.

Was there any significant tonnage routed NYC Pennsylvania Div.-BR&P-NYC Franklin Div. for Philadelphia-Cleveland traffic? Would it have not had made sense to keep all the mileage (and revenue) to itself by routing such traffic up to Lyons, N.Y. and thence westward?

Statkowski wrote: Was there any significant tonnage routed NYC Pennsylvania Div.-BR&P-NYC Franklin Div. for Philadelphia-Cleveland traffic? Would it have not had made sense to keep all the mileage (and revenue) to itself by routing such traffic up to Lyons, N.Y. and thence westward?

From http://www.abandonedrails.com/NYC_Franklin_Division

During WWI, the JF&C routing [Jamestown, Franklin, & Clearfield] was used to bypass rail congestion at major yards on NYC, also many troop trains to bypass the same choke points.
The main symbol freights operated for decades were CP2 (Chicago-Philadelphia) eastbound and LS7 (Lake Shore) westbound. They used the High Grade from Andover to Dorset then onto the Low Grade between Dorset and Ashtabula.
During WWII, these trains were run in sections, as once again the routing via NYC and Reading proved its worth again. In addition to cars brought to Andover from the south to be picked up by CP2, a new through train YP4 (Youngstown-Philadelphia) eastbound was added to move material directly from Mahoning Valley war factories to port.

Then a few paragraphs later:

In early 1950s, NYC rerouted CP2 and LS7 via the Pennsylvania Div northward into New York State. Only on occasion due to traffic congestion on the NYC's main east of Buffalo or detours would they operate on the Oil City and JF&C branches.

Regarding splitting the revenue, I think the total trackage on the PRR and the BR&P between Rose (the east end of the Franklin Division, outside of Brookville PA) to Falls Creek on the PRR, and the on the BR&P to NYC rails again at Clearfield was less than 60 miles. And I would guess the trains ran through and did not get added onto PRR or BR&P trains for these sections. I once dug through on-line old employee timetables and indeed saw these trains listed. Also, if they went via the NYC main from Cleveland to Selkirk and then down to northern NJ, they would have had to use the CNJ/Reading(?) to get from northern NJ (eg. Weehawkin area) down to Philadelphia, also ~60 miles.

Statkowski - I see I misread your post about the routing - you were talking about routing from Newberry up to Corning and then Lyons and west - not through NJ (on CNJ/Reading?) and then Selkirk. In any case the website I quoted says the motivation was avoiding congestion on the main line. And maybe the mileage was shorter. JS

Avoiding congestion is understandable. Keeping everything one your own rails and avoiding any trackage rights, even if the route is longer, is generally more profitable (and that's why railroads are in business). Traffic demands during wartime, however, can overrule everything. CP2 and LS7, however, were interline RDG/NYC operations, probably with time constraints dictating the use of foreign trackage.

Sometime back in the late forties or very early Fifities, Trains ran a very substantial article featuring one day's activity at FALLS CREEK Tower, a few miles north and west of DuBpis and visible from I-80. FALLS CREEK was where the Pennsy's Low Grade Branch (Driftwood to Brady's Bend) crossed the former Buffalo, Rochester and Pittsburgh main line, plus a juncion with a little used branch from Brockway, on the PRR's Emporium-Erie line. Kalmbach Publishing has preserved all the early-years of Trains on CD -- well worth the price, IMHO

The tower is still standing. The ex-PRR line to Brockway has been rehabbed and sees service, but now connects straight off the B&P main line (the ex-PRR line running parallel to the DuBois yard is no more, mostly).

Ok, I am confused ...

I thought the line still in from Falls Creek to Brockway was the old BR&P (B&O) with the parallel PRR pulled out as well as the little shortline that served the mine (forget the name of it). The PRR Low Grade now comes up from Reynoldsville and instead of crossing on the diamond goes past the tower hooking into the BR&P and ends somewhere near Clarion ?

The "stub" used as storage or yard track dead ends before getting to the old diamond and access to the low grade east is out of the BR&P yard ?

I totally admit to being geographically and historically challenged here and appreciate any help.

Cactus Jack wrote:Ok, I am confused ...
I thought the line still in from Falls Creek to Brockway was the old BR&P (B&O) with the parallel PRR pulled out as well as the little shortline that served the mine (forget the name of it). The PRR Low Grade now comes up from Reynoldsville and instead of crossing on the diamond goes past the tower hooking into the BR&P and ends somewhere near Clarion ?

I don't know which line is the one still in to Brockway, but the BR&P line from C&M junction (just south of Dubois) east to Clarion has been cut. The section from C&M Jct. to Curwensville is gone - the part from Curwensville east to Clarion is still in and part of RJ Corman. The BR&P main going south from C&M Jct is still in (part of B&P RR ?).
JS

I just keep getting more confused. The BR&P to Clarion ? I thought from Falls Creek to Clarion was the PRR Low Grade to Red Bank that the NYC had rights over. The BR&P went from C&M Jct. to Clearfield, whhich indeed is gone excepting Clearfield to CB Jct. ? Never knew the BR&P went to Clarion although the P&W was out that area.

As far as I know the B&P still runs south of Dubois to Punxy and beyond.

Cactus Jack wrote:I just keep getting more confused. The BR&P to Clarion ? I thought from Falls Creek to Clarion was the PRR Low Grade to Red Bank that the NYC had rights over. The BR&P went from C&M Jct. to Clearfield, whhich indeed is gone excepting Clearfield to CB Jct. ? Never knew the BR&P went to Clarion although the P&W was out that area.

As far as I know the B&P still runs south of Dubois to Punxy and beyond.

You are right, not confused, It's me that made a mistake. I mixed up Clearfield and Clarion! The BR&P branch from C&M Jct went past Curwensville and CB Jct to Clearfield, with CB Jct to Clearfield now RJ Corman.

Regarding the PRR Low grade line, we must be thinking about a different one. The one I am thinking of went from the Red Bank (Allegheny River) to Brookville to Falls Creek to DuBois to along Bennet Branch River to Driftwood (junction with the PRR Harrisburg-Buffalo line). Not up to Clarion.

JS

Geez !

Yeah and I got tangled up between Clarion and Brookville.
Meant the PRR from Red Bank through Brookville (not Clarion) - Falls Creek - Driftwood. Must be a full moon or something today ....

The other PRR line, R&C went north along Route 219 along parallel to the BR&P and under Lanes? Viaduct eventually to Ridgway and up to Clermont and Larabee, if I recall.

But years ago (long before my time !) BR&P did have rights over the PRR through Brookville to Red Bank and into Pittsburgh from what I understand, before they built their own line south of Punxy area.

Good point! I forgot that the PRR Falls Creek Secondary track went all the way to Ridgway, where it ted into the PRR's Erie Line. That line had interlocking plants only at major junctions like Warren (IRV, OTTS) or Corry (EYE) or at-grade crossings with other roads (MS Tower), and train-order offices existed at Ridgway, St. Mary's and Union City at one time. Several "Block-limit" or "Unattended Block" Stations were also in use.

Once the BR&P was "spun off" as an independent, accessing Brockway via a truncated version of the former PRR would have made perfect sense.

The Low Grade Line was similarly operated, with part-time train order offices at Summerville (SU) and Brookville (GH), The NYC trackage rights began at one of the two, but where they ended escapes my memory.

When Penn-Central came into existence in 1968, the Clearfield-Curwensvillle-Cherry Tree line was shown in the new Employees' Timetable, but the printer goofed and the listing for that line made no sense. Presumably, it was corrected via a paste-over sticker, but I never saw a copy.

C&M Junction outside DuBois was still operating when I visited in July of 1969, but on weekdays only, which was sufficient to control access to the two branches which joined the BR&P main.

The NYC had rights on the PRR Low Grade from Rose, west of the tunnel at Brookville to Falls Creek where they got on the BR&P for the run to Clearfield via C&M Jct.