NY High Speed Rail

This could go in the NYS Railfan forum or here, but I thought it was better here. The Utica Observer-Dispatch had an interesting article about high-speed rail in NY. It's not dead, but it is certainly delayed for a little while.

Here is the link to the article: http://www.uticaod.com/news/x518444107/ ... em-stalled

Amtrak Forum Moderator's Note:

Moved to the High Speed Rail Forum

Let's see...the gas tax receipts are down because people are buying less gas now that it is expensive, the costs of government services are going up rapidly in large part because governments use a lot of fuel, Albany has been one of the more corrupt state capitals, NY has suffered from a lack of political leadership for years (so much so that they can't even manage to get the high profile WTC site rebuilt), Turboliners....

The thought that NY will get HSR anytime in the foreseeable future requires the suspension of disbelief.

There's definitely a need for NY High Speed Rail west of Albany. That market I think could easily exist. But it would require state money, rather than federal money. The Adirondack remains NY State's only state supported train. And granted, NY State has a huge burden when it comes its commuter rail system and subway system. But is upstate NY getting its fair share of quality rail service? That's always been a push-pull relationship - no pun intended. When I was in Buffalo not too long ago, I really was surprised to read about NY NARP's plan (I believe it was them) to get an upstate NY train extended to Cleveland or even Detroit. This would be ideal.

I agree. I've said for a few years that extending a coach only train or to further west seemed to be an idea worth pursuing.

As for high speed rail upstate, no offense, let's work on the NYP-ALB. Lately (and granted much is do to scheduled maintenance on the part of CSX) trains that were carded in 2:20 are now 2:35. We're losing ground here folks.

If NYS decides to electrify from Croton up to Albany sometime in the future ... do they string wire or extend the third rail?

What is the max speed for a third rail system?

Long-distance electrification would be overhead wire. DC requires frequent substations, which means it's about twice as expensive to build *and* maintain. Third rail also needs to be DC (there seems to be some problem with third rail AC, which is reportedly used in the Moscow subway but has never been used outdoors; I think the problem relates to current leaking to ground?) Furthermore, third rail requires more frequent substations than overhead *DC* due to more current leakage to ground! It also requires more metal (more $$), and so on and so on. (It does also impose a speed limit due to maintaining the 'shoe' contact with the rail, though I can never remember what that limit is; but I'm pretty sure it's at least 110mph, the speed limit of the existing coaches and baggage cars, which means it would be relevant if entirely new trains were used, but not if new locomotives were attached to existing passenger and baggage cars.)

To use it effectively would require acquistion of 'dual-system' all-electric locos which ran on underrunning third rail 750V DC and overhead 25KV AC. (And the overhead electrification of the Empire Connection.) With the exception of the unusual shoe needed for underruning third rail, these exist off the shelf in Europe. Unfortunately the FRA's Not Invented Here rules and the Buy American rules probably mean that until some regulatory reform is achieved these would be very expensive (rather than, as they should be, cheaper than diesels). It would probably then make sense to change engines at Albany for all trains which continue past there, until the electrification can be extended (20 minutes is the shortest scheduled Albany layover, and this is already done for some trains, so this isn't unreasonable, especially if we assume speed increases Albany-NYC, which would be the main point of the electrification).

Again, until NY gets serious and buys the CSX-owned portion of the track from Albany to Poughkeepsie -- which is a minor branch line for CSX -- we're not going to see anything significant happen. That's been recommended as the priority first step by every high-speed rail study or commission, and the state just hasn't gotten around to opening negotiations, which means it's not really serious about it.

My fairly-plausible fantasy scheme had this electrification and track improvement as 'step one', with Metro-North acquisition of more dual-system electrics as 'step two', and re-electrification of the Hudson line on overhead catenary as 'step three'.

Fall start possible for express train to NYC

The express train faces at least one other hurdle: a lack of available equipment. Amtrak's available rail cars, all about 30 years old, according to the DOT rail plan, are committed to existing service.

Hmm, what about these trains that New York taxpayers already bought at great expense?

Ohh no not again, make him stop.
before someone goes postal.

Matt Johnson wrote:Fall start possible for express train to NYC

The express train faces at least one other hurdle: a lack of available equipment. Amtrak's available rail cars, all about 30 years old, according to the DOT rail plan, are committed to existing service.

Hmm, what about these trains that New York taxpayers already bought at great expense?

What is stopping these trains being used? Surely some use could be made of the carriages even if the power cars aren't used.

I think that we all know that no one in America will bite, but it appears that Amtrak and NYDOT think a foreign entitiy might:
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sb/irj0 ... tid=55#/60

If they're good enough to sell, they're good enough to use. This express train would be a perfect application for the turbos - start in Rensselaer, no intermediate stops, a quick turn-around in NYP, and back in Rensselaer by evening. It's exactly the type of service the trains were designed for. And it would only require a couple of trainsets (only one run per day, with one backup set). The rest could be cannibalized for parts. Rather than pay to refurbish old Amfleet equipment, they should do whatever it takes to get these trainsets back into operation.

However, if they can find a foreign buyer that'll give 'em a good return on their investment, more power to them!

Ive worked them as an LSA and conductor, ran them as an engineer and Ill say it again JUUNNKKKK.

StLouSteve wrote:If NYS decides to electrify from Croton up to Albany sometime in the future ... do they string wire or extend the third rail?

What is the max speed for a third rail system?

In Britain about 90 mph. That's for surface contact 750 volts. There are two systems: one in the south of England; the other in the Liverpool area. The Liverpool doesn't test these limits but the main lines in the south do, for example, the Southwest Main line from London to Southampton touches 90 mph on some stretches.

I have no idea what are the limits for underneath connections as used in New York.

But there are numerous classes of EMUs that can switch from overhead to third rail and do so at several points when travelling from south to north of London. The switchover can occur while the train is moving.

george matthews wrote:

StLouSteve wrote:If NYS decides to electrify from Croton up to Albany sometime in the future ... do they string wire or extend the third rail?

What is the max speed for a third rail system?

...the Southwest Main line from London to Southampton touches 90 mph on some stretches.

I think the limit is 100mph on this line, but this is about the limit for third rail: the world record speed is only 108mph.