North Carolina NCDOT-Amtrak Carolinian Service

Bob Roberts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 4:37 pm The area north of Greensboro is pretty empty. Reidsville might get a stop, but there are no other benefits to NC for more connectivity north of Gboro[/list]
Having said that, it seems like extending an existing Lynchburg train further South would be relatively low-impact for NS?

Sorry but both LYH trains go on to Roanoke so no extension of them. The only stop north of Greensboro would be Danville which only gets Crescent service.

Virginia subsidizes two bus routes from Danville to DC Union Station (one via US 29 and Dulles Airport and one via Richmond), each of which were used by an average of 1.6 riders daily. I think if Virginia were to add another service through Lynchburg, they would see more benefits to also sending that train to Roanoke than to sending it through Danville.

I also think that the amount of traffic Raleigh generates north bound on the Carolinian and Silver Star suggests that if NC were to run another NY to Charlotte train, they would see more benefits by running that train through Raleigh than through Lynchburg.

RandallW wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 5:41 pm I also think that the amount of traffic Raleigh generates north bound on the Carolinian and Silver Star suggests that if NC were to run another NY to Charlotte train, they would see more benefits by running that train through Raleigh than through Lynchburg.

IMO you are correct. That is why I've often said a day train from ATL northbound should follow the route of the Carolinian. CLT and north. Yes Danville has about 42k population but the potential of all the population of an ATL service thru Raleigh is maybe 20 times that number.

Bob Roberts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 4:37 pm

Arlington wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 4:17 pm Is there yet any appetite for a WAS-CLT day train on the route of the Crescent ? Is that just too big affront to points east of GRO to envision a train that NC & VA should be thrilled collaborate on?

It really has not been mentioned at all. I think the option gets ignored because:

• The political center of the state's gravity is definitely between Raleigh and the A-Line cities

• The area north of Greensboro is pretty empty. Reidsville might get a stop, but there are no other benefits to NC for more connectivity north of Gboro

• I don't think NCDOT feels it has much to gain by sponsoring more trips out of state, especially when those trains have relatively few stops inside NC. Such a train would also eat up a long bridge slot -- something that is still scarce, even after after the new bridge is built

• I suspect the biggest reason is NCDOT does not want to antagonize NS by suggesting more passenger traffic on their main. NCDOT would probably prefer to keep their powder dry for more NCRR service

Having said that, it seems like extending an existing Lynchburg train further South would be relatively low-impact for NS?

Bob makes some really good points here. Instead of pushing for more long distances to interface with a really good example of a three-hour corridor, we should learn what works here and apply it elsewhere. States with 3-5 cities within three rail hours of each other and a already existing well-built mainline.

RandallW wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 5:41 pm Virginia subsidizes two bus routes from Danville to DC Union Station (one via US 29 and Dulles Airport and one via Richmond), each of which were used by an average of 1.6 riders daily.

A new spin on 1-a-day service!

RandallW wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 5:41 pm Virginia subsidizes two bus routes from Danville to DC Union Station (one via US 29 and Dulles Airport and one via Richmond), each of which were used by an average of 1.6 riders daily.

https://drpt.virginia.gov/data/performa ... dashboard/
Part of what's wrong with the Danville route is that it is a dangling end. Looks like for FY2024 it was 1.1 per day on the US29 route and 2 per day on the Richmond route. It'd be much easier to fill a bidirectional route that had GRO/CLT as a southern anchor (and thereby served things like UVA/Liberty to the Carolinas) than to ask "how many people want to go to Danville?"

On a Charlotte to NYP end to end ride today to visit my daughter who is a new New Yorker. The trip has been fine, other than the hour delay leaving Charlotte due to a "national PTC outage"? The onboard staff have been very good with one glaring exception, the coach attendant who has been driving the PA has decided her job is to yell at passengers at every stop. Exhortations like 'keep the seat next to you clear"; "clean up in the bathroom after using it"; "pick up after yourself in the cafe!" and "get your stuff together and move towards the door before the train stops, or else" got progressively more aggressive as the trip progressed. The crescendo was in DC when it was repeated four times that if you did not have a ticket for Train 80 you would be deboarded in Baltimore. How is it that every other nation in the world manages to have electronic platform signage that makes getting on the wrong train MUCH less likely?

I do have some sense of the exasperation involved with dealing with the public these days so I have some understanding of where they are coming from (I know those things need to be said sometimes). However, I would like my train ride much more if I felt less like I was in a prison being shouted at by guards. Seems like a PA policy and some training might be in order.

One other nit pick (I am still an hour from NYP): The business class car was set up with half the seats facing backwards. I get the need for that on quick turn service, but it seems like a bad choice on a 14 hour run. My business class fare isn't high enough to buy a forward facing seat? (and the seat picker screen when I bought the ticket showed all seats pointing in the direction of travel IIRC)

Bob Roberts wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 6:57 pm The crescendo was in DC when it was repeated four times that if you did not have a ticket for Train 80 you would be deboarded in Baltimore. How is it that every other nation in the world manages to have electronic platform signage that makes getting on the wrong train MUCH less likely?

It still happens. MARC 406(now 410) used to get Amtrak passengers boarding it on a regular basis at BWI even though it has digital signage and announcements both on platform and on train. If they have their ears plugged and they're not observant (read: be an average human) they're going to default to "the next train. Yeah, that one. Looks like a train. I'mma going to board it."

The conductor must of worked that train before switching to the Amtrak boards. (And before you ask, Amtrak operates MARC on the NEC)

Checking tickets at WAS makes sense now.

New York City to Atlanta is 863 rail miles with a scheduled 18.5 hours on the existing Crescent train. A for purpose "day" train will certainly require many "night" hours of travel, either departing New York City extremely early in the morning or arriving in Atlanta extremely late at night. A daily trip will require two additional train sets, one northbound and one southbound. Because it is over 750 miles of travel, no state would be required to subsidize it. And since this "long distance" train is now also providing service between New York and Charolette, that North Carolina subsidizes Amtrak's losses, why would North Carolina continue to subsidize the Carolinian? I suggest they would not.
That would place a double whammy on Amtrak financially.
Therefore, those advocating extending the Carolinian south to Atlanta have not thought the negative consequences out thoroughly.

North Carolina has considered extending the Carolinian from New York to New Haven to push it beyond 750 miles before, with no change to the NYC-Charlotte schedules, but using an early morning New Haven - NYC slot. (Wikipedia). NCDOT noted this would reduce, but not eliminate NC's funding obligations for the Carolinian.

There's nothing in the law that says Amtrak must fund service beyond 750 miles. They're just prevented from launching sub-750 mile service without a state subsidy. But they can also negotiate terms with a state or states of any extension someone desires.

I think an extension of the nite owl would work well.

The former Night Owl times in the NEC are now oddly distributed to serve the needs of Virginia: the northbound service in that timeframe originates in Roanoke and the southbound train terminates in Norfolk. These times serve Virginia's interests by providing a critical part of the services that allow for (admittedly short) day trips between Roanoke and DC and points in between and Norfolk and DC and points in between in both directions that don't conflict with other existing Amtrak, CSX, MARC, NS, and VRE services. (Washington DC is the busiest station for trips originating or terminating in Virginia on the trains supported by the state of Virginia.)

Yes, can't even find a north bound schedule.
So i will clarify I mean an overnight nec train arriving in D.C about 7 a.m southbound, and leaving D.C about 10 p.m northbound.

ryanwc wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 8:51 pm There's nothing in the law that says Amtrak must fund service beyond 750 miles. They're just prevented from launching sub-750 mile service without a state subsidy. But they can also negotiate terms with a state or states of any extension someone desires.

Section 209 of the 2008 Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act (PRIIA) governs how Amtrak supplies short corridor services to states, defines those services as routes of 750 miles or less, and requires mechanisms to bill states for their share of the costs.
Note, the law does not require mechanisms to bill states for their fair share of the costs for services over 750 miles because Congress denied them that ability. The law does not allow it!