Next Locomotive For the T?

I agree that the numbers will be difficult to come by to directly compare the costs because there are so many variabilities. I want to emphasize that I said operate/maintain because there is more to it than just not having to replace wire or not having the wire available. For example:

• A dedicated power dispatcher 24/7
• Ice cutting patrols in the winter to clear the wire of ice
• Regular testing/inspection as required
• Specialized (expensive) workforce to do the all this work

As for trees MBTA started clearing their entirety of their property from property line to property line first after a couple bad winters, and they told Amtrak to do the same because they were sick of trees in the wire. You can find some articles in some upscale community rags about it, Wellesley is on that comes to mind. SCR is just a continuation of that. It needed to be done for safety anyway - too many trains striking large trees at track speed.

Still, removal of a downed tree on the ROW is an example of another thing that costs more with electric vs diesel. You have to wait for the ET and then the wire has to be inspected and might have to be re-hung. No more train or train crew pushing the tree clear, or the nearby foreman with a chainsaw who can be there in 10 minutes. More staff for more time, and more delay to trains which means more overtime for train crews. Plus any replacement wire if needed.

Again, this is operate/maintain. I'm not talking about capital costs to install, or how it can drive capital costs up for other projects due to protection or changes that need to be made to the wire as well. I'll also freely admit, again, that operating/maintaining a diesel does indeed cost more than an electric. Just knowing everything else that goes into it, I find it hard that savings isn't washed out by cost increases elsewhere.

Here is the Amtrak plans for various maintenance and upgrades. Pages 15 and 16 have specific plans for the ET work. Most ET work you will find is for the PRR sections.

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/proj ... Y21-26.pdf

Don't see how the capital investment south of NY applies here, I'm not talking about major upgrades or significant overhauls - those aren't operating costs which is what this discussion has been about. I'm referring to the top 3 items in that plan (descriptions are on page 2). Inspection/Monitoring, Preventative Maintenance, Corrective Maintenance. Those are part of operating/maintaining the wire - the day-to-day type stuff. Periodic inspections, routine maintenance, etc. aren't listed in detail in the plan. I'll note that there is a mid-life rehab for the NED listed in there under Preventative Maintenance.

Anything that is "capital" is a major project that is undertaken, and usually comes from a totally different pool of money. Buying new engines is a capital investment, just like the significant catenary upgrades south of NY. Every piece of infrastructure will eventually need either a capital renewal or replacement. I'm putting capital costs aside because you referred to operating costs - they are different.

If the MBTA buys electric engines and puts up wire those are both capital investments. Keeping them running every day is operations/maintenance.

I believe there is a point where after X trains an hour it's cheaper to go electric. I admit I don't know what that number is. I believe if they ever increase trains within 128 that would break that threshold. Just to stir a hornets nest sometimes you get no choice but to go electric such as if the North South Rail Link is ever built, the plans said that has to be electrified because of the depths and the difficulties in getting exhaust out of the tunnel. I wish they would electrify everything going through Back Bay, that place is miserable with exhaust.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t see any sources pointing to the Mbta looking to buy electric locomotives. Not saying it isn’t happening, but I can’t find anything indicating it’s going forward anytime soon. If there is one, please link it and I’ll read it.

No electric motors? Only by indirect observations. What new diesel loco is on the ordering book right now? Just seems only rebuilds?

Commuterrail1050 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:00 amCorrect me if I’m wrong but I don’t see any sources pointing to the Mbta looking to buy electric locomotives. Not saying it isn’t happening, but I can’t find anything indicating it’s going forward anytime soon. If there is one, please link it and I’ll read it.

^^-- what he said. I see lots of "want to buy electric" but until they do...

The perfect solution for the smoke in the BBY tunnel would be a smallish battery for the short distance of the tunnel and regenerative braking.

Commuterrail1050 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:00 am Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t see any sources pointing to the Mbta looking to buy electric locomotives. Not saying it isn’t happening, but I can’t find anything indicating it’s going forward anytime soon. If there is one, please link it and I’ll read it.

I'll start with the lengthy post I put together on page 2 of this thread.

Depends on your definition of "looking" as they are definitely exploring options more seriously than they have in the past. The MBTA board committed to electric service on certain lines as part of the Rail Vision in October of 2019. In order to run electric service you need some kind of electric propulsion, be it a straight motor, EMU or Dual-Mode. There's been a lot of discussion with several links in the Commuter Rail Electrification thread on this forum.

The T already put out an RFI for EMUs, and gave the board an update on the response in June 2020.

The Battery-Electric EMU thread in this forum contains a link to an RFI which includes reference to BEMUs and dual-mode locos.

Page 129 MBTA's FY23-27 Capital Investment Plan indicates a plan to procure 40 new Commuter Rail Locomotives to replace older locomotives in the fleet. Thoughts on what these new locomotives will be?
https://cdn.mbta.com/sites/default/file ... ssible.pdf

Procurement of
Commuter Rail
Locomotives (P0380)
Base procurement of 40 Commuter Rail locomotives to
replace aging vehicles in the fleet.

Motors, if pages 18, 41 and 64 of this can be believed.

I don't see how those pages suggest that the MBTA is going for Electrics, but I can see how pages 31, 33, 54, and 126 are suggesting this.

Planning for future procurement of electrified equipment is a separate line item from current procurement of whatever they're buying here. This round will likely be Tier 4 diesels.

CIPs are like Christmas lists. These are things the T would theoretically like to do, but it's far from becoming an action item.

I personally think the Tier 4s the MBTA should go for are MP54ACs. The MBTA already has MPI as its most prominent locomotive supplier at this point and they would be the most similar to what the MBTA has now, which make for an easier learning curve for maintenance crews.