National Railroads Strike in September?

Per BNSF:

Generally, train crew employees have over 3 to 4 weeks of paid vacation and over 10 Personal Leave Days.

That's 25 days at the lower end, well in line with the AAR statement.

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NHV 669 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:08 pmif someone like me at the bottom of the food chain can get a week of paid sick days, why can't the men and women who are on call 24/7 get the same?

Getting vs taking is the issue. eolesen's question is key. How easy is it for you to set your own hours? How much advance notice do you need when scheduling a doctors visit when you're not sick? How much advance notice do you need when scheduling a vacation and how often do you hear "no"? Does your job have dates where if you ask for that day off you might as well resign?

I have been employed at the bottom of the food chain. I have spent most of my life making sure I never have to go back. At that end of the chain one works the hours they are given ... often less than 30 per week so the employer can avoid paying benefits to their "part time" employees. You're not sick so you don't need to see a doctor. Preventative visits are not acceptable. Ask for vacations early and hope for the best.

The good news about the bottom of the food chain is you usually get a schedule for the next week or two or can get on a regular schedule so you can fit life in around the craziness. Perhaps that is a ring or two away from the bottom.

The 24/7 employee? They don't know when they will next work and they can be called to work even on pre-approved days off. With railroad employees that can be as soon as they are legally rested or it could be days later with no idea of the start time of the next shift when one clocks out from the previous one. Time off statistics for railroad employees are skewed by the variable periods between their "12 on". But those 24/7 employees are normally closer to the top of the chain ... start pay for railroaders at the 50% mark for all employed people in the US and average pay for railroaders much much much higher.

eolesen wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:39 pm Do you at the bottom of the food chain have

1) the ability to mark yourself off for a week as unpaid
and
2) the ability to mark yourself available the other three weeks of the month and able to work every day within the FRA defined allowable hours of service?

25-29 paid days off per year is more than a month off. Is another week of paid time away on top of that the norm at your place of work?

Any time I take off is paid, whether it's a sick day, vacation time, or something like short-term disability which is offered by the employer as needed. (Like when I got Covid last year.)

I would work any day I could, if the workload is there; we aren't scheduled weekends, and corporate doesn't like us working more than 14 consecutive days.

Counting our 11 paid holidays, plus a week of paid sick time (no doctor notes needed)on top of my vacation time + floater, that's 32 days for me. That jumps to 37 days when I hit 10 years in January 2026. If I can get that as a factory worker, railroaders on the ground deserve their time as well.

justalurker66 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:38 pm
How easy is it for you to set your own hours? How much advance notice do you need when scheduling a doctors visit when you're not sick? How much advance notice do you need when scheduling a vacation and how often do you hear "no"? Does your job have dates where if you ask for that day off you might as well resign?

I have been employed at the bottom of the food chain. I have spent most of my life making sure I never have to go back. At that end of the chain one works the hours they are given ... often less than 30 per week so the employer can avoid paying benefits to their "part time" employees. You're not sick so you don't need to see a doctor. Preventative visits are not acceptable. Ask for vacations early and hope for the best.

The good news about the bottom of the food chain is you usually get a schedule for the next week or two or can get on a regular schedule so you can fit life in around the craziness. Perhaps that is a ring or two away from the bottom.

The 24/7 employee? They don't know when they will next work and they can be called to work even on pre-approved days off. With railroad employees that can be as soon as they are legally rested or it could be days later with no idea of the start time of the next shift when one clocks out from the previous one. Time off statistics for railroad employees are skewed by the variable periods between their "12 on". But those 24/7 employees are normally closer to the top of the chain ... start pay for railroaders at the 50% mark for all employed people in the US and average pay for railroaders much much much higher.

I work the same hours every day, M-F, unless I come in for extra OT whenever that may be. It is full time, full benefits, and as long as you tell them, 2-4 days is enough for a sudden day off, or scheduling any kind of medical appointment. No questions were asked for me taking the last two weeks of this year off.

Your horror story sounds like my 15 months at Kroger, ironically a union job.

Minimum wage pay, ZERO PTO, and you're lucky to know your schedule more than 6-7 days at a time, and you'll be working all but one of those days anyway. No thanks....

The starting pay for "on call" folks should reflect that availability need. So should their needs as humans who have lives outside of those jobs.

A journeyman Ironworker or plumber, both skilled trades where you spend 3+ years working at around 50% pay as an apprentice in crappy working conditions, now earns less than a railroad employee with comparable seniority.

Sorry, but you can't complain about the compensation for railroaders. It was already well above average for hourly workers, mostly to adjust for the on-call nature of the job and need for high dependability.



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Red Wing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:08 pm How does BNSF's Hi-Viz or the other Class I's version of it fit into the AAR's statement? If I had to guess this is the real reason why railroaders want their sick time.

Here is BNSFs Hi Viz program for your reading enjoyment. Of course this manipulated as the carrier sees fit.

https://www.blet104.org/hi-viz-attendan ... y-31-2022/

NHV 669 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:01 amYour horror story sounds like my 15 months at Kroger, ironically a union job.

Retail was the bottom of the chain for me ... including a summer at Kroger. Retail would include department stores, food stores, specialty stores and I'd even expand into the food service industry. All "bottom of the chain" where some really good and intelligent people can spend decades working but still not hit entry level pay at a factory.

The downside of factory work is layoffs when workers are not needed (pay is good when you are working) and high pressure for overtime when extra workers are needed. I have had family that loved the overtime but didn't plan for the layoffs, but most understood the work flow and factored in the forced vacations. The factory work I have done was non-union except in one place where I worked through a temp agency. Their union contract allowed the company to hire temps for no more than 90 days so most of the workers were temps through their 89th day then fired and replaced by another temp from the same agency. Only the best of the best got to stay on for the 90th day and become a direct hire. The agency didn't care since they got paid the same regardless what warm body they sent to fill the job.

Every job has its positives and downsides. The lower end of the chain seems to have less positives.

I work the passenger side of things so there maybe some slight different on the freight side.

Pay scale works as such at least it does for Amtrak:
Training rate
Once you mark up to the list:
1st year 75% of the hourly rate
70% if on a yard job
2nd year 80%
75% if on a yard job
3rd year 85%
4th year 90%
5th year 100%
Of course your union dues Tier 1 Tier 2 are not pro rated as such its taken like any other tax.

On the freight side of things have heard conductors say newbies can expect to make around 50K just starting out, not bad if your single but a family yikes.

The extra list:
Has a assigned day off I always liked Mondays. The issue you are on call 24/7 BUT you can call at any time and get your standing or see what trains are available to work. HOWEVER its the railroad and things just happen you could be 10 times out with one train showing thinking you are safe for the night and 15 minutes later its the the crew caller. If you work into your day off you still kinda get a day, well 24 hours but if you missed that scheduled appt. ohh well.

This maybe a difference between freight and passenger Amtrak extra list is guaranteed where as some on freight may not be. Meaning if you only work 8 hours the railroad will pay you the difference to make your week whole as long as you stay marked up. Miss a day and you get paid for what you worked and they do not care what you missed it for.

Riding the cushions is a easier way to make a buck in comparison to freight. Trains are generally scheduled and you can get a feel for what is going on that day.

Let me introduce you to freight railroading under PSR ideas.

The pay scale is still in effect, although they bumped some newer conductors up to 100% this year.

The extra boards are guaranteed in my home terminal, can't say about the rest of the railroad. The turns are company controlled and the number of turns is subject to change every week. I've been around long enough to remember when they weren't guaranteed and flooded with turns. I actually think it was better that way.

Train lineups are useless under PSR, it only shows the time the train is planned for. So, I can be first out and see a couple of trains planned to be called for 1 am and 3 am. The trains may even be built in the yard. Problem is under PSR, almost all the power is relayed off other trains now. If that train has any delay, that delays the train lineup I'm looking at, but they don't update it in real time, every few hours they will push the time back. The train with the power may show up 8 10 12 or even 24 hours late.

If anyone here fans the B&A, you may have noticed more trains running during the day now. This is why, they are all late.

So now instead of being called for 1 or 3 am, I'm looking at 1 or 3 pm. Or even later and I'm sitting first out the whole time. So now I'm tired again and that's, when the phone will ring to go out for at least 12 hours. This ties into the contract dispute, but I can't post there due to people not knowing what they are talking about. Add to this not being able to mark off without being penalized.

This is a PSR failure, sweating the assets. We can't move anything without engines.

I know your Amtrak; freight is a totally different world.

taracer wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:02 pm Let me introduce you to freight railroading under PSR ideas.

The pay scale is still in effect, although they bumped some newer conductors up to 100% this year.

The extra boards are guaranteed in my home terminal, can't say about the rest of the railroad. The turns are company controlled and the number of turns is subject to change every week. I've been around long enough to remember when they weren't guaranteed and flooded with turns. I actually think it was better that way.

Train lineups are useless under PSR, it only shows the time the train is planned for. So, I can be first out and see a couple of trains planned to be called for 1 am and 3 am. The trains may even be built in the yard. Problem is under PSR, almost all the power is relayed off other trains now. If that train has any delay, that delays the train lineup I'm looking at, but they don't update it in real time, every few hours they will push the time back. The train with the power may show up 8 10 12 or even 24 hours late.

If anyone here fans the B&A, you may have noticed more trains running during the day now. This is why, they are all late.

So now instead of being called for 1 or 3 am, I'm looking at 1 or 3 pm. Or even later and I'm sitting first out the whole time. So now I'm tired again and that's, when the phone will ring to go out for at least 12 hours. This ties into the contract dispute, but I can't post there due to people not knowing what they are talking about. Add to this not being able to mark off without being penalized.

This is a PSR failure, sweating the assets. We can't move anything without engines.

I know your Amtrak; freight is a totally different world.

I work with plenty of ex Cons and CSX guys who jumped ship and came across the river to Rennselaer Ive heard plenty of horror stories. Some still stay in contact with folks on your side and they say it isn't good and it wasn't that good when they left. I watched your negotiations on account our contract is up. Amtrak normally follows suit and piggybacks off the freight agreement.

Will the Brotherhoods remember that the Senate Republicans voted against the separate bill that would have mandated 7 days of paid sick-time? I haven't and won't forget.
Even the House Republicans voted for the separate bill.

For those here who hold the enacted legislation ending any possible strike represented a "union busting" stunt sanctioned by Joe (he signed it), here is a powerful opinion piece that appeared in this past Friday's Times.

Fair Use:

President Biden has reveled in a reputation as perhaps the most outspoken supporter of organized labor ever to sit in the White House. On his first Labor Day as president, he hailed unions as necessary “to counter corporate power, to grow the economy from the bottom up and the middle out.” But it has been easy for Mr. Biden to praise unions in an era in which they have little power to make a president uncomfortable.

The threat of a railroad strike presented the first time that Mr. Biden’s statements about unions have been put to a stress test. Americans are learning, as a result, that this president shares with many of his predecessors a queasiness about letting workers wield power.

If Joe is to seek a second term, he may well be without organized labor's support. Having "been there done that" as part of my railroad career, Labor has long memories of real or perceived "wrongs".

Speaking for myself, who has followed industry affairs for now some seventy years - including my eleven years "inside" - the legislative actions "sort of represented" union busting. Those who hold that collective bargaining under the Act produced an agreement acceptable to eight of the twelve unions representing railroad workers, can say "it worked". That Bernie and Liz, as well as a few of their pals over in the House, found out they could not legislate provisions regarding PTO, and as Mr. jaymac immediately notes, means collective bargaining takes precedence over enacted legislation. "I'm all for it" should a Section 6 be served to open collective bargaining regarding PTO. I do not believe that any such Notice would violate the five-year moratorium agreed to with regards to rates of pay (what less than informed reporters call a "five-year contract") as any such bargaining represents a "working conditions" matter.

Or... limit the scope of the issue creatively enough so that it's not a major dispute.

Per some of the comments from taracer and railjunkie, the issue isn't necessarily the time off being paid or not. It's whether or not the employee should be penalized for a short-notice call-off due to illness, fatigue or a family emergency.

If that can be kept narrowly defined and as an interpretation of a working condition, then it's a minor dispute. Much shorter path to resolution, and no opportunity for politicians to intervene even if it comes down to binding arbitration.

jaymac wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:57 amEven the House Republicans voted for the separate bill.

Less supported the second bill than the first. The first bill followed President Biden's request that the TA be enforced intact AS NEGOTIATED by the railroads and unions without modification.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:00 amIf Joe is to seek a second term, he may well be without organized labor's support.

Perhaps they will remember this is how he prevented the country from being shut down and protected the employment of millions of union workers who were not party to this agreement?

If they read the AAR summary of the agreement they may want President Biden to impose similar terms on THEIR employment. Railroad employees are among the best paid and receive the highest employer compensation toward medical benefits of all unionized employees (per the AAR).

Plus who else is organized labor going to support? When voting is choosing the lesser of two evils the candidate closest to one's views is going to get the vote. Both sides have voters who "hold their nose and vote for their party" regardless of candidate.

Don't confuse who labor supports, and who individual members vote for.

The disconnect there has grown larger and larger over the years. You can't find a police union that supports Democrats anymore. I keep wondering when the Mine Workers and the Pipefitters will wise up.