my neighbors are at it again (on topic)

Maybe the reasons why NHRR didn't have these issues included:

1. Electirc locomotives that ran quieter and didn't emit engine exhaust.
2. They didn't haul garbage.
3. In a time of lower real estate values, their neighbors didn't think that they were too high and mighty to have railroad activities near their houses.

It seems that the NIMBY's are too tempermental.

railfan365 wrote:Maybe the reasons why NHRR didn't have these issues included:

1. Electirc locomotives that ran quieter and didn't emit engine exhaust.
2. They didn't haul garbage.
3. In a time of lower real estate values, their neighbors didn't think that they were too high and mighty to have railroad activities near their houses.

It seems that the NIMBY's are too tempermental.

Believe me, I'm not a NIMBY. Just can't stand the general inflexible attitudes.
I should have been more specific, my fault:

While your first 2 points are true (#3 - There weren't many, if any homes, when the NY Connecting was built.), I was only addressing location. My point was why not use that old interchange yard, which is surrounded by other rail facilities, to assemble the trains? This would take them off the long stretch to the north which borders the complaining homeowners.

Johnny F wrote:

railfan365 wrote:Maybe the reasons why NHRR didn't have these issues included:

1. Electirc locomotives that ran quieter and didn't emit engine exhaust.
2. They didn't haul garbage.
3. In a time of lower real estate values, their neighbors didn't think that they were too high and mighty to have railroad activities near their houses.

It seems that the NIMBY's are too tempermental.

Believe me, I'm not a NIMBY. Just can't stand the general inflexible attitudes.
I should have been more specific, my fault:

While your first 2 points are true (#3 - There weren't many, if any homes, when the NY Connecting was built.), I was only addressing location. My point was why not use that old interchange yard, which is surrounded by other rail facilities, to assemble the trains? This would take them off the long stretch to the north which borders the complaining homeowners.

I haven't been over there in a while myself - so to me, your idea just might be worth a fresh look by those who actually have decision making roles in this.

Johnny F wrote: Don't get me wrong, I'm all for rail service and do believe these folks are off-base, but that doesn't mean that their isn't room for a rational compromise.

But you need other rational people to make such a compromise with.

First the good ole' Christ the King HS people make unfounded allegations about the smell, health concerns, etc - and force the RRs to get the cars out of there before dawn, and now you've got their immediate neighbors/politicians/etc crying about the noise early in the morning. This isn't rational, and compromise can't occur with people that don't possess logical thinking minds at a very basic level. (I'm not saying thats you, btw. - I mean some of these people int hat neighborhood that have made this a mess).

Personally, I live by the tracks further up the line in astoria. I'd like it if csx didn't run uphill at 5AM. It can be loud... those 6 axles can scream if it's a heavy train. At the same time, I'm not going to go banging on Vallone's door whining about it because I'd rather the trash go over hell gate than over the triboro. Dozens of trash truck emissions per night or a single train. I rather deal with the train. It's cleaner safer and far less dangerous for people driving. I sleep through it 99.9% of the time anyway. If it ever really irks me I'll... you know... move.

These oh so special people involved with CTK HS are the main morons here. If they didn't have their little unfounded tantrum, the schedule would never have changed and no one would be complaining today. All they've done is shifted the problem away from them and further up the line - from at the most a few hundred people annoyed to potential thousands living in earshot of the tracks all the way up the line.

The smartest thing anyone could do would be the following:
1) push the interchange cars back down the line to ENY tunnel. Potentially unworkable though given that's on a decent downhill grade, no? Hey, those people are poor down there, who cares right (that's sarcasm)
2) Run the train at a normal hour, during the day weekdays, the way it used to be. If it's not broke, don't 'fix it'.
3) Maybe get some fancy new low emission engines down there at least for yard duty. They'd probably not be well suited for the long hill up to the bridge though.

I think these are all fine points that could be agreed upon, with #2 being clearly the smartest/simplest/could-be-done-tomorrow. NYA could pick up the bush trash in the morning (with a machine gun mounted on the pilot), bring it over and have it ready to go for csx late morning. Done.



Seriously... people at a high school complaining about noise and smell? Have they looked at their own students lately?

Johnny F asked is there room for rational compromise? My $0.02-

Yeah I think there's plenty of room for compromise with these people, but that's up to the NY&A, CSX, the City and the community. Railfans really don't have much of a role to play. Which I think may explain some of the anger we see here.

The CURES group is actually made up of a number of neighborhood groups. I think they've done some decent work too. They're more than just nimbys fighting against the local railroad.

For instance, they say they support moving municipal waste by rail. But they would like it done in a way that respects the neighborhoods surrounding the rail yards. Some of these containers do stink, sealed or not. When the high school said sickening odors forced them to cancel activities on the athletic field I can believe that. I can easily believe that. Do they have the right to complain? Yeah, why not?

When CURES points out that compared to other industrial properties in the area, the NY&A yard is a mess and should be cleaned up, that sounds reasonable. I don't have any problem with that.

They also would like to see NY&A get a grant (like giant CSX got at Oak Point) to acquire genset diesel units. Why not, that would benefit NY&A and their employees too.

The recent complaints are about assembling cuts of cars on the track north of Fresh Pond. Where there is double-track, I believe? Up to the Swamp Switch? There are a lot of homes abutting the area.

As I read it, the community groups believe the impact on the neighborhood is too extreme. That if NY City wants to start moving garbage by rail in ever increasing amounts, then they need to upgrade the infrastructure. I don't have a problem with that either.

As the daily carload counts of garbage grow, with WMI supposedly to begin moving some north Brooklyn trash via Maspeth and Fresh Pond next year, I think maybe it is time for the city to start thinking about locating and building a larger yard somewhere for the express purpose of handling, interchanging, and storing if need be, this mountain of garbage.

Tommy Meehan wrote:When the high school said sickening odors forced them to cancel activities on the athletic field I can believe that. I can easily believe that. Do they have the right to complain? Yeah, why not?

Why not? How about because Christ the King doesn't even have an athletic feild.

Okay "outdoor events."

Tommy Meehan wrote:For instance, they say they support moving municipal waste by rail. But they would like it done in a way that respects the neighborhoods surrounding the rail yards. Some of these containers do stink, sealed or not. When the high school said sickening odors forced them to cancel activities on the athletic field I can believe that. I can easily believe that. Do they have the right to complain? Yeah, why not?

Their way of supporting MSW moves is by having it go somewhere else. All of the solutions they have proposed have involved the trains being redirected either south through Bklyn and floated out of 65th Street or west from Blissville over the Montauk cutoff and east to NYCRR. As long as the trains don't go through their neighborhoods, they'll be happy. That's the respect they want for the area. Let someone else have the problem. This is nothing more than pure NIMBYism. While the trash trains are currently necessary, NO ONE HAS PROPOSED A WAY TO REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF TRAINS BY REDUCING THE AMOUNT OF TRASH PRODUCED!!! That's how you stop these trains. Get the CITY and PEOPLE of New York to take responsibilty for processing trash to energy within it's own borders and stop burdening it's neighbors and far away states with it's trash.

Two recent events have done nothing more than guarantee an increase in raill traffic through these areas. The breaking ground on the rehab of the old Grumman spur in Calverton and the Port Authority purchase of Greenville. I hope no one thinks that rail traffic will only go OUT of the city. With rebuilding the yard and floats, this opens a shortcut into New England and Canada for freight coming up from the south. Should be very interesting to see if COFC/TOFC suddenly starts flowing North.

RRChef wrote:Their way of supporting MSW moves is by having it go somewhere else. All of the solutions they have proposed have involved the trains being redirected either south through Bklyn and floated out of 65th Street or west from Blissville over the Montauk cutoff and east to NYCRR. As long as the trains don't go through their neighborhoods, they'll be happy. That's the respect they want for the area. Let someone else have the problem.

Look saying these people want someone else to have the problem sounds to me like a way of just whipping up emotions. If they don't want it they have to provide an alternative or someone will say they're totally unrealistic, wouldn't they?

Plus you're lumping everyone together. The people at CTK who were complainng about the smell are not all the same people that are complaining about pre-dawn switching up in Middle Village. The coalition that was put together is trying to draw people together to work out a common strategy in the hopes of improving the situation. I don't see anything evil or infuriating about that. People need to calm down and try and put themselves in the other guy's shoes.

People are going to complain. Do you own a home or have kids? People get very protective about both. And with good reason! Maybe you shouldn't take it so personally?

I have to think that shipping via Bay Ridge and carfloating it to Greenville might actually be a smart idea. It would save CSX about 300 redundant train-miles for starters.

Tommy Meehan wrote:

RRChef wrote:Their way of supporting MSW moves is by having it go somewhere else. All of the solutions they have proposed have involved the trains being redirected either south through Bklyn and floated out of 65th Street or west from Blissville over the Montauk cutoff and east to NYCRR. As long as the trains don't go through their neighborhoods, they'll be happy. That's the respect they want for the area. Let someone else have the problem.

Look saying these people want someone else to have the problem sounds to me like a way of just whipping up emotions. If they don't want it they have to provide an alternative or someone will say they're totally unrealistic, wouldn't they?

Plus you're lumping everyone together. The people at CTK who were complainng about the smell are not all the same people that are complaining about pre-dawn switching up in Middle Village. The coalition that was put together is trying to draw people together to work out a common strategy in the hopes of improving the situation. I don't see anything evil or infuriating about that. People need to calm down and try and put themselves in the other guy's shoes.

People are going to complain. Do you own a home or have kids? People get very protective about both. And with good reason! Maybe you shouldn't take it so personally?

I have to think that shipping via Bay Ridge and carfloating it to Greenville might actually be a smart idea. It would save CSX about 300 redundant train-miles for starters.

If you read up further in this post you'll notice that i mention that I lived in this area. All of my family is from Middle Village and Maspeth. I have family and friends who are personally affected by this. I am going to tell you what I told them. There was a 10 year moratorium on the shipping of MSW through Queens. The city didn't wait 10 years for the moratorium to expire to set their plans. Neither did Waste Management. The only group that did nothing in that time were the residents of the area. That was the time to protest and force change. The problem now is not the railroads. But the people think they are because it's the most visable part of the city's sanitation plan. They railroads were hired to do a job and they are doing it the most efficient and environmentally safe way they can. The flaw is the city's sanitation plan. That's where change is needed. Trash from NYC destroys 140 acres of land per year. Reduce the amount of trash, increase recycling, compost organic waste, build plasma incinerators within the city's own borders and the need from the transporting waste hundreds of miles by train will be reduced. That is what civic groups should be pushing the city to do. I am totally against the trash trains, not because of the noise or the smell but because the city's plan places a burden on everyone else without any effort to come up with a solution that's acceptable to everyone.

Oh, BTW, I do own a home and have children. You and anyone else interested are invited to stand in my yard any day the wind is blowing out of the South-Southwest and count the number of planes flying directly overhead at altitudes under 2000 feet at intervals of 1-2 minutes heading to land at JFK Airport 15 miles away. These planes fly over several schools and parks before reaching the airport. These planes fly 24 hours a day in all weather. The smell of jet fuel can be overpowering not to mention the constant noise. The last time I called the FAA because of a very low flying plane, a government employee told me "Look, this is an urban area. There are services that are necessary for the area and the airport is one of them. If the noise is bothering you, the best thing you can do is move." You want me to calm down and put myself in the other guy's shoes? No. I don't think so.

This was reported last week.

http://www.hudsonreporter.com/view/full ... ute_jersey

[i

[i]Hudson Reporter[/i] wrote:JERSEY CITY -- The Port Authority Board of Commissioners on Tuesday authorized the agency to move ahead with the purchase and redevelopment of Greenville Yards, a century-old rail yard in Jersey City, N.J. that they say will remove up to 360,000 trash trucks annually from trans-Hudson crossings and New Jersey highways by moving New York City’s sealed containerized solid waste and other commodities by barge and rail when appropriate facilities are completed by 2013

Interesting. Perhaps the Fresh Pond-Oak Point route may not be as busy as expected.

Ironically these people carry the same name as a rail shippers group looking to re-regulate the railroad industry. Consumers United for Rail Equality. CURE. What are the odds. Basically this group wants more oversight from Congress to set rail rates and force class ones to open their tracks to competing railroads. Some of the same legislation pre 1980 that buried the rail industry. Kind of off topic but funny that both these groups have the same acronym to hurt rail freight. One on a regional scale, the other on a national scale.