Railroad Forums 

  • More rails-to-trails announced!

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

 #1401895  by scotty269
 
Hidden amongst updates about the SLV crisis, the SEPTA board announced the following:

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In other business at SEPTA’s monthly board meeting, the authority approved leasing about three miles of unused freight rail to Richland and Springfield Townships for use as walking and bike trails to connect with Lehigh County’s trail at the border of Bucks County. The stretches of unused rail on the Bethlehem Branch will be leased free of charge for 30 years. The municipalities will handle any construction and maintenance needed, and SEPTA reserves the right to convert the right-of-way back to rail if needed.
 #1401934  by JeffK
 
... and SEPTA reserves the right to convert the right-of-way back to rail if needed.
"The announcement also included eventual resumption of the Crusader under full steam."

Sorry for the cynicism, but since rails-to-trails began decades ago less than two miles of ROW nationwide have ever been reverted. Absent a tectonic political shift, I doubt we'll see much more if any.
 #1401973  by ChrisinAbington
 
So this is the stretch from just north of Shelly to around Coopersburg? Considering the stretch it connects to up north is gone already (Including the old encroachment on the ROW by Lutron) I'd say no big loss. If they throw Shelly or south away, that would be big news.

Edit: After looking at a map, this might well include most of the ROW into Quakertown from the North... If so, that's a big let down considering how recently that station was in the plans for Quakertown service restoration.
 #1402013  by glennk419
 
ChrisinAbington wrote:So this is the stretch from just north of Shelly to around Coopersburg? Considering the stretch it connects to up north is gone already (Including the old encroachment on the ROW by Lutron) I'd say no big loss. If they throw Shelly or south away, that would be big news.

Edit: After looking at a map, this might well include most of the ROW into Quakertown from the North... If so, that's a big let down considering how recently that station was in the plans for Quakertown service restoration.
Most likely this is the stretch from California Road through Shelly and up to Coopersburg. East Penn still uses the tracks from Quakertown to California Road for car storage and retains trackage rights to that point.
 #1402050  by jmatchesky
 
JeffK wrote:
... and SEPTA reserves the right to convert the right-of-way back to rail if needed.
"The announcement also included eventual resumption of the Crusader under full steam."

Sorry for the cynicism, but since rails-to-trails began decades ago less than two miles of ROW nationwide have ever been reverted. Absent a tectonic political shift, I doubt we'll see much more if any.

It is disappointing that none of the rails-to-trails turn back into rails, but I'd argue that's absolutely not the fault of the trails.

There may not be an official record, but I doubt much, if any, of the abandoned ROW in the USA that doesn't have trails on it has been turned back into active rail lines either.

The sad fact is, once a line becomes inactive/abandoned, there's probably not much of a reason to restore it, whether it's been inhabited by bikers and joggers, or by trees and tall grass.
 #1402068  by dcipjr
 
This sentiment is probably unpopular around here, but I'd rather an inactive rail line be used as a trail, then just languish waiting for service restoration that will probably never happen.

I live near the old Newtown line, and the Pennypack trail is a great place to walk—and judging by the number of people I see walking it whenever I'm there, people agree with me. I feel like the ROW is doing more good for more people as a trail than as a rail line, considering the close proximity to other train lines.
 #1402098  by JeffK
 
As both a rail and trail user I see the issue as a mixed bag that needs to be evaluated case by case. Just looking at some local trails, there are a major trails where reversion simply can't be justified. E.g. the now-Schuylkill River trail was effectively redundant as a rail line for most of its existence, having been built by the PRR to counter RDG service. The two were so close that some catenary supports were actually shared. Similarly, even though the Perkiomen Trail runs through growing areas that could benefit from rail service its routing wouldn't meet modern needs. IMHO again any thought of reversion is fantasy.

On the other hand converting the Ivy Ridge portion of the Cynwyd line has effectively eliminated any chance of restoring that route and leaves the Cynwyd stub as an orphan, as we've discussed in other threads. A case (admittedly weaker) could be made that post-1960s development along Lancaster Avenue could support restoring most of the former P&W Strafford branch, but it too is fully repurposed. Finally there's the whole morass that mires restoration of Quakertown service, which like Cynwyd has been discussed at great length.

The biggest stumbling block I see is that currently reversion is almost always a zero-sum proposition. Trails have developed large user constituencies because they provide so many benefits. There's neither money nor will to find a way to support both groups safely and successfully, hence reversion ipso facto sacrifices the trail's usefulness. Unless an alternate approach can be found, most reversion is effectively DOA.

Maybe the question that should be asked is not whether rails should be re-laid where they once were, but whether new routes for either rails or trails can be found.
 #1404229  by Wingnut
 
The Newtown Line I have no problem with as a trail because other lines nearby serve that market well if not perfectly. But letting the Bethlehem Branch get carved up for a trail is unacceptable. It links two of the Commonwealth's largest metro area and has no viable alternate rail corridor. I'm surprised there wasn't more of an outcry when they approved the first trail segment up there.
 #1404292  by RussNelson
 
dcipjr wrote:This sentiment is probably unpopular around here, but I'd rather an inactive rail line be used as a trail, then just languish waiting for service restoration that will probably never happen.
I've seen far too much encroachment by abutters to like the idea of simply leaving tracks in place unused for decades. I'd rather see the property lines of the right-of-way enforced by having a trail there. The reality of abandoned tracks is that the ties turn into mush and need to be completely replaced. It's a lot easier to do that when the rails aren't there. The trail maintenance folks will keep the ditches clear and the culverts open. They'll repair washouts.

It's fair to say that a trail is more prepared for service restoration than any set of tracks not maintained for 20 years.
 #1405373  by Jackinbox1
 
RussNelson wrote:
dcipjr wrote:This sentiment is probably unpopular around here, but I'd rather an inactive rail line be used as a trail, then just languish waiting for service restoration that will probably never happen.
I've seen far too much encroachment by abutters to like the idea of simply leaving tracks in place unused for decades. I'd rather see the property lines of the right-of-way enforced by having a trail there. The reality of abandoned tracks is that the ties turn into mush and need to be completely replaced. It's a lot easier to do that when the rails aren't there. The trail maintenance folks will keep the ditches clear and the culverts open. They'll repair washouts.

It's fair to say that a trail is more prepared for service restoration than any set of tracks not maintained for 20 years.
The issue I've seen on the whole rail trail thing is that there is a broken mindset that once a railbed is trailed over, it's done. Forget service restoration, that property is all NIMBY-land now.
And can I just say, as an actual member of a rail trail group, that no no no, that's not the case. Mostly.
Sure, some RT groups are NIMBYS in disguise, but others care about preserving the history and the corridor for future use. To choose a local example, the Facebook operators and a lot of the members of the Windham and Derry rail trails are rail supporters themselves.
 #1405456  by roadmaster
 
Jackinbox1 wrote:The issue I've seen on the whole rail trail thing is that there is a broken mindset that once a railbed is trailed over, it's done. Forget service restoration, that property is all NIMBY-land now.
And can I just say, as an actual member of a rail trail group, that no no no, that's not the case. Mostly.
Sure, some RT groups are NIMBYS in disguise, but others care about preserving the history and the corridor for future use. To choose a local example, the Facebook operators and a lot of the members of the Windham and Derry rail trails are rail supporters themselves.
In my experience with rail trails is that there is also plenty of NIMBY opposition for the trails, not just rail.
 #1406027  by Suburban Station
 
roadmaster wrote:
Jackinbox1 wrote:The issue I've seen on the whole rail trail thing is that there is a broken mindset that once a railbed is trailed over, it's done. Forget service restoration, that property is all NIMBY-land now.
And can I just say, as an actual member of a rail trail group, that no no no, that's not the case. Mostly.
Sure, some RT groups are NIMBYS in disguise, but others care about preserving the history and the corridor for future use. To choose a local example, the Facebook operators and a lot of the members of the Windham and Derry rail trails are rail supporters themselves.
In my experience with rail trails is that there is also plenty of NIMBY opposition for the trails, not just rail.
please provide a recent example of well organized NIMBYism in relation to trails within the last five years to substantiate your claim
 #1406044  by roadmaster
 
Suburban Station wrote:
roadmaster wrote:
Jackinbox1 wrote:The issue I've seen on the whole rail trail thing is that there is a broken mindset that once a railbed is trailed over, it's done. Forget service restoration, that property is all NIMBY-land now.
And can I just say, as an actual member of a rail trail group, that no no no, that's not the case. Mostly.
Sure, some RT groups are NIMBYS in disguise, but others care about preserving the history and the corridor for future use. To choose a local example, the Facebook operators and a lot of the members of the Windham and Derry rail trails are rail supporters themselves.
In my experience with rail trails is that there is also plenty of NIMBY opposition for the trails, not just rail.
please provide a recent example of well organized NIMBYism in relation to trails within the last five years to substantiate your claim
Google NIMBY trail opposition on the "internets" and I'm sure you'll find one or two. You can even try to predict which one will be the third.
 #1406054  by SemperFidelis
 
This is slightly dated, but when I lived in Bethlehem and the old Reading line was being coverted into a rail trail (just before the casino was built), the Mayor recieved all sorts of complaints at town meetings and at the local Democratic club for building what would certainly become "The Drug Dealer Expressway" due to the localities it passed through.

I have heard similar complaints from small minded, predjudiced people when it comes to trail construction and the opening of new transit lines. "Those people" from "those bad areas" apparently are waiting for healthly lifestyle supporting bike trails and cost effective, environmentally friendly light rail lines to commit thier crimes. Of course, these things are never about predjudice, but "facts" and "demographics". Those of us calling out bigotry where we see it in these arguments are just "being PC"...since calling someone "PC" is an easy way to deflect attention away from predjudice.

Yes, it happens against trails, too. Probably not as often as against new transit projects but ask your average homeowner if they want a few hundred strangers wandering down a trail that is adjacent to thier backyard and I would imagine a good number of them would have reservations.

Edit- the old Reading line was also derisively referred to as "The Grey Way".