MARC/VRE run-through

SRich
I see a possible merger in the future if VRE and MARC are going thru DC. station :wink:

Wink is apted. The points made above by mtuandrew above are minor details.

A merger of the two agencies would require and act of Congress to approve an interstate compact to create the combined agency. Being that DC will likely have a stake in this, they might also become a member on the compact.

Oh, and for the record, an interstate compact of similar purpose already exists here. It's formerly know as The Washington Metropolitan Aera Tansit Authority.

Now rolling VRE and MARC into WMATA would require amendment of the WMATA Compact to include the jurisdictions VRE and MARC serve that WMATA does not, along with bunch of details to make the schema agreeable to the new members of the compact.

MARC and VRE have different contractor operating their service. The VRE operator (Keolis) took it in the shorts when they made their play to be the MARC operator - NAZI collaboration in WW II France was the issue.

Nnnnggghhhh... now I get a chance to read through the article... And there's so much wrong (and we covered on this thread)...

• Through-running the Brunswick line requires a fly-over from Track 1 to Track 28 on K Tower interlock, or else you have all Amtrak traffic stopped while MARC blocks it all going through the Interlock. This means Brunswick line has to transfer to another MARC to go through.
• VRE equipment cannot be used. Only MARC equipment can fit, since it can do high and low block on all equipment. Yes, the MARC IV's are out on the Brunswick and Camden lines! They have door traps!
• The only route that is viable is ALX-WAS-NCR-ODN-BWI-BAL... but with current capacity constraints, I can't see how you can shove more trains onto the line or even rework what we have to have a few trains go down and back. I'm not talking the Long Bridge -- I'm talking between K and CARROL and the ol' B&P Tunnel.

I'm not going to touch on personnel issues (which given the most viable route, would be Amtrak all the way around, and may solve training/etc if costing MARC extra cash). Just the technical physicality... there's going to need a LOT more done to pull it off right.

While I agree with STrRedWolf, mmi16, and John on the mid-long term issues, the run-through operator and agency charter issues can (will have to) be temporarily solved by changing crews at Washington Union Station.

Very long term, WUS could use a second tunnel from as far west as there are tracks (new platforms below tracks 8-12?) to the 1st Street Tunnel. That would solve the crossover issue STrRedWolf mentions.

STrRedWolf
Through-running the Brunswick line requires a fly-over from Track 1 to Track 28 on K Tower interlock, or else you have all Amtrak traffic stopped while MARC blocks it all going through the Interlock. This means Brunswick line has to transfer to another MARC to go through.

The Washington Terminal throat does not have the kind of limits that WMATA uses to justify the alleged Rosslyn 26 trans per hour limit.

The only route that is viable is ALX-WAS-NCR-ODN-BWI-BAL... but with current capacity constraints, I can't see how you can shove more trains onto the line or even rework what we have to have a few trains go down and back. I'm not talking the Long Bridge -- I'm talking between K and CARROL and the ol' B&P Tunnel.

Run throughs does not necessarily mean increasing the total number of trains per hour.

mtuandrew
While I agree with STrRedWolf, mmi16, and John on the mid-long term issues, the run-through operator and agency charter issues can (will have to) be temporarily solved by changing crews at Washington Union Station.

CSX runs freight through via Benning and the Virginia Tunnel with no crew change. I see no need to do the same with MARC.

Sand Box John wrote: ↑Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:20 am STrRedWolf
Through-running the Brunswick line requires a fly-over from Track 1 to Track 28 on K Tower interlock, or else you have all Amtrak traffic stopped while MARC blocks it all going through the Interlock. This means Brunswick line has to transfer to another MARC to go through.

The Washington Terminal throat does not have the kind of limits that WMATA uses to justify the alleged Rosslyn 26 trans per hour limit.

The only route that is viable is ALX-WAS-NCR-ODN-BWI-BAL... but with current capacity constraints, I can't see how you can shove more trains onto the line or even rework what we have to have a few trains go down and back. I'm not talking the Long Bridge -- I'm talking between K and CARROL and the ol' B&P Tunnel.

Run throughs does not necessarily mean increasing the total number of trains per hour.

mtuandrew
While I agree with STrRedWolf, mmi16, and John on the mid-long term issues, the run-through operator and agency charter issues can (will have to) be temporarily solved by changing crews at Washington Union Station.

CSX runs freight through via Benning and the Virginia Tunnel with no crew change. I see no need to do the same with MARC.

Are you proposing to run MARC/VRE via the Virginia Ave. Tunnel and eliminate Union Station from the route?

mmi16
Are you proposing to run MARC/VRE via the Virginia Ave. Tunnel and eliminate Union Station from the route?

No. What I am saying is freight crews run through between the three subdivision of CSX via Benning and the Virginia Ave Tunnel, why should thing be any different for MARC crews doing the same via Washington Terminal.

Sand Box John wrote: ↑Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:25 am mmi16
Are you proposing to run MARC/VRE via the Virginia Ave. Tunnel and eliminate Union Station from the route?

No. What I am saying is freight crews run through between the three subdivision of CSX via Benning and the Virginia Ave Tunnel, why should thing be any different for MARC crews doing the same via Washington Terminal.

In the short term (like some miracle they start service March 1st and MARC 445 runs through to Crystal City) I can see MARC Penn Line conductors (read: Amtrak, since they operate MARC equipment on the Penn Line) able to go down to Alexandria and back with little issue. VRE handing off to MARC...

Okay, here's the thing. VRE currently is Rush hour, Rush direction only. Mornings into DC, Evenings out. Same with MARC Brunswick Line. To make run-through work with the personnel in the mornings, you need to rush in and then reverse rush out the other side. The VRE staff is all going in. MARC is going in the Brunswick Line, in/out on the remaining (heavy in-bound for Penn line, but near equal on the Camden). To do ALX-WAS on MARC equipment with a hand-off, you need VRE crew that'll do a reverse rush south of Union... or do a "out and in" back to Union. In other words, you need VRE personnel that can do the job...

...or you pay Amtrak a bit more for their crews to go all the way down. Wanna bet they Amtrak crews that work the MARC Penn Line are qualified to go to Alexandria?

Long term, yes, we need infrastructure built. Bare minimum is the newer Long Bridge and enhancements to L'Efant Plaza and Crystal City stations so VRE can run two way to ALX. I can't see how we can squeeze two MARC-to-ALX runs in the current schedule, though. It's going to take a schedule rework and that means a mess of negotiations with CSX.

For going through Benning/Virginia Avenue Tunnel? No go. That track never touches Amtrak rail -- it hits the MARC Camden line, and there's ZERO connection between it and BWI Airport. The nearest station there is Dorsey, which is south-east of BWI and is the only viable one that can be accessed by bus. Take into account the projected load? No, I'd rather try to squeeze another train round trip on the Penn Line.

STrRedWolf
For going through Benning/Virginia Avenue Tunnel? No go. That track never touches Amtrak rail -- it hits the MARC Camden line, and there's ZERO connection between it and BWI Airport. The nearest station there is Dorsey, which is south-east of BWI and is the only viable one that can be accessed by bus. Take into account the projected load? No, I'd rather try to squeeze another train round trip on the Penn Line.

Never suggested running MARC to Virginia via Benning yard and the Virginia Avenue Tunnel. As to no access to BWI, Both CSX and Amtrak have connection to the Virginia Avenue Tunnel. There is a junction at the south end of Benning Yard, the tracks on the east side of the Metrorail Orange line go to a Y in Hyattsville that junctions with the Camden line, the track on the west side connect to the Amtrak NEC in Landover.

I could see limited camden/penn line run through to at least L'efant, before the new long bridge, but after the additional tracks and platforms are added to that station. It looks like there are crossovers in place around it, that could give relief to the red line at union station. https://ggwash.org/view/28225/plan-envi ... k-in-sw-dc
Once long bridge II is in place, these could extend to Alexandria.
Otherwise, I'm envisioning Amtrak service to preform this function. At least until there is a Regional transportation organization.

Yep, CSX uses the Landover Sub to access the NEC from Benning Yard; that’s how they get unit coal trains to the Popes Creek Sub south to Morgantown, MD. It’s also how NS exercises its NEC trackage rights from Baltimore to Alexandria. The Landover Sub allows Amtrak to bypass Washington Union Station if it needed, but there’s pretty much no reason for Amtrak to do so absent an Auto Train extension.

Anyway.

Amtrak crews are certainly an option, and for now they’re the best option to run MARC equipment through the 1st Avenue Tunnel under diesel power.

Sand Box John wrote: ↑Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:17 pm STrRedWolf
For going through Benning/Virginia Avenue Tunnel? No go. That track never touches Amtrak rail -- it hits the MARC Camden line, and there's ZERO connection between it and BWI Airport. The nearest station there is Dorsey, which is south-east of BWI and is the only viable one that can be accessed by bus. Take into account the projected load? No, I'd rather try to squeeze another train round trip on the Penn Line.

Never suggested running MARC to Virginia via Benning yard and the Virginia Avenue Tunnel. As to no access to BWI, Both CSX and Amtrak have connection to the Virginia Avenue Tunnel. There is a junction at the south end of Benning Yard, the tracks on the east side of the Metrorail Orange line go to a Y in Hyattsville that junctions with the Camden line, the track on the west side connect to the Amtrak NEC in Landover.

Okay, you're right. I saw "Benning Yard" and thought "South of tunnel" when it's really north next to the Anacostia yard. So there will be access... if they go through the NEC. If they stick to CSX track, you can't get to the airport.

mtuandrew wrote: ↑Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:51 pm Yep, CSX uses the Landover Sub to access the NEC from Benning Yard; that’s how they get unit coal trains to the Popes Creek Sub south to Morgantown, MD. It’s also how NS exercises its NEC trackage rights from Baltimore to Alexandria. The Landover Sub allows Amtrak to bypass Washington Union Station if it needed, but there’s pretty much no reason for Amtrak to do so absent an Auto Train extension.

Anyway.

Amtrak crews are certainly an option, and for now they’re the best option to run MARC equipment through the 1st Avenue Tunnel under diesel power.

While there is still coal traffic going to Morgantown.
I know it's not the subject of this thread, but anyone wonder if the state could do for tit for tat with CSX for the popes creek line, once it loses it's primary customer?
Also, how much business does NS really have between baltimore and alx?

Something interesting to throw in the mix. MARC mentioned in it's "MARC Cornerstone Program" a "Penn/Camden Connector". Essentially, they want to rebuild a wye at Strickland Street next to the NEC, and run it down an existing RoW to connect with CSX track at their Mt. Claire yard. The primary goal is to get MARC equipment from the NEC to the Riverside repair shop faster. Secondary goal, WAS-NCR-ODN-BWI-Camden Yards.

If you can squeeze a run out of CSX, and get the connector done, why not ALX-WAS-NCR-ODN-BWI-Baltmore Camden Yards? (BCM maybe?) You don't have to worry about squeezing another train through the B&P, and I think Camden Yards has capacity.

Maryland approves plan to expand MARC commuter trains into D.C., Virginia
https://www.washingtonpost.com/transpor ... -virginia/

By
Luz Lazo
March 19, 2020 at 10:08 AM EDT

In one of its last orders of business Wednesday, the Maryland General Assembly passed a bill to expand Maryland commuter train service past Union Station in the District and into Virginia.

MARC trains could be operating across the Potomac River within a few years if the measure is signed into law by Gov. Larry Hogan (R).
...