longer trains

I know that CTA is set to rebuild the Brown Line to accomodate 8-car trains. That got me to wondering if some lines might actually be able to accept 10-car trains. For example, both branches of the Blue Line appear to have platforms at all stations long enough to take trains 10 cars long, possibly except for the elevated stops along Milwaukee Ave. Another example is the Orange Line. If the demand was there, could CTA do it?

Good question! I seem to recall that the CTA had designed stations from the 1958 Congress line to date to reasonably allow longer trains. The Howard-Dan Ryan Red Line would be the obvious candidate for longer trains. 10 car rush-hour trains would help on that line but the question is: Can the older L North Side platforms handle 10 cars? Does the O'Hare-Forest Park and Cermak lines warrant 10 car trains? What work would have to be done to allow Ravenswood Brown Line trains to be longer? Could this work be accomplished reasonably? MACTRAXX

It's probably got to do with safety (why they don't extend trains to ten cars). If there's an incident of some sort on the last car, another two cars means that it'll take longer for the operator to get there, which could be very bad for the person having the incident (whether it be medical, or crime related). If the CTA still had conductors, then it might be a possibility, but ten cars seems like a bit much to have just one person in charge.

In the NYC subway forum there's been recent discussion of the "L" Carnarsie line going to one-person operation. This line uses trains of 8 (maybe 10) 60-foot long cars, so the train length would be comparable to or even longer than 10 48' CTA L cars. The point is, it can be done and NYC at least thinks it is safe to do. The Canarsie line operates underground from Manhattan through a good chunk of Brooklyn before going elevated/surface.

My original question was IF the demand was ever there, would CTA consider using longer trains, and if they did could it be done reasonably well on, say the Blue, Red, Orange, and Green lines using existing infrastructure.

Along the Red line, the station platforms on the south segment between Cermak and 95th should be able to hold 10 car trains with little modifications. But many of the station platforms N of Belmont would have to be lengthened, especially at stations like Lawrence, Argyle, Berwyn, Thorndale, and Jarvis. Although these stations can obviously berth the current 8-car trains serving them, they do so with little room to spare.

While obvious infrastructure improvements would have to made (the addition of a third track being chief among them) a case could be made for a Blue line "express" service from the Loop to O'hare, augmenting current local service with 10 car express trains running at 20 or 30 minute intervals. But given today's low ridership realities, I can't see 10 car trains on the Cermak or Forest Park branches on the Blue line right now, because except in rush hours, there aren't many passengers traveling west of the Medical Center district, and trains are basically running empty beyond there as it is. And if you were to run 10 car trains on the Green line today, they'd have to run with at least 20 minute intervals, especially during midday, again due to low ridership on the south and west side areas served by the route.

IMO, the Red Line should be the obvious choice for 10-car trains, as it's pretty crowded at all hours of the day and night. I think the platforms on the far north side such as Argyle, Berwyn, etc. would be fairly easy to lengthen, as you'd simply just add on another 96 feet to the end of the existing platforms (assuming there are no crossovers in the way, but those can be moved). I think Howard already has unusually long platforms.

The bigger problem, I think, would be to lengthen the platforms of the subway stations (other than the continuous platform under State Street) if they aren't already built for 10-car trains. You'd have to do additional excavation and lots of new construction. Big bucks.

And of course, the CTA would have to get additional rolling stock, but they're planning on that anyway.

10-car trains on the Green Line would be rather pointless, IMO, as the line barely has enough ridership to justify 8 cars. In fact, almost every Green Line train I see is usually 6 cars or less.

If memory serves, all CTA subway platforms are sufficiently long to handle 10-car trains.

Regarding lengthening the older 'L' platforms -- they have been lengthened once or twice already to allow eight-car trains (or six, in the case of the Brown Line). Due to ADA requirements, these days a simple extension could not be tacked on as was done in the past; as we've seen on the Brown Line project, they're supposed to tear down the whole thing and build an "accessible" station in its place. Gotta love the ADA.

Ah right, I had forgotten about the ADA factor. I'm strongly in favor of ADA, but that does complicate things.

Thanks for the clarification about the subway platforms.

doepack wrote:Along the Red line, the station platforms on the south segment between Cermak and 95th should be able to hold 10 car trains with little modifications. But many of the station platforms N of Belmont would have to be lengthened, especially at stations like Lawrence, Argyle, Berwyn, Thorndale, and Jarvis. Although these stations can obviously berth the current 8-car trains serving them, they do so with little room to spare.

The Red Line (Howard/Dan Ryan) l north of belmont will have to get upgrades (to my view) for it to hold longer trains, plus by law they will have to be updated to ADA standers for disable persons(including elevators, or ramps). There are many stations that right now can hold 10 cars, but just bariely, in the state street subway it is easy to hold 10 cars since it is a contuned platform(i.e Jackson, Morone, Washington, & Lake).

David Cole wrote:10-car trains on the Green Line would be rather pointless, IMO, as the line barely has enough ridership to justify 8 cars. In fact, almost every Green Line train I see is usually 6 cars or less.

They is no way the green line will run 10 cars not at this time. They is between 1 and 3 train sets that run on the green line during rush hour, I know that, because I had ridden a green line train that had 8 cars.

The orange & blue lines may see 10 cars, but to my judgement not every train set will be 10 cars, they will contuine to run 6 or 8 cars during rush hour.

And not to mention, the Green Line Platforms (mainly the southern end) are antiquated too, although they were recently refurbished, they still need an extensive overhaul for 10 car trains, which will be just imagination. Besides, I think Line 3 Green is also a bit slow in patronage in that southern end.

Actually, since many of the Green Line stations on the South Side are "accessible," a simple two-carlength platform extension would be acceptable at those stations. That is, if it would even be necessary -- I may be wrong, but I think some of the platforms down there are long enough for 10-car trains.

What is "Line 3 Green"? The CTA doesn't use numbered routes for the rapid transit.

Many of the Red Line stations north of Belmont are already capable of handling 10-car trains. Of course, all Red Line stations south of Belmont are also sufficiently long.

It is true that most of the red line stations can hold 10 cars, but it is the factor of it extending the platorms, and making the stations ADA compliant.

If the ADA act was not in effect, it would be very easy to extend the platforms to 10 cars, but now if they want to extend it they would have to do like they did the Blue(Douglas)line, and they going to do to the brown(Ravenswood) line and tear it down, and rebuild it to ADA staus.

As MikeF stated the stations that are already ADA stations will be easy to extend the platform to 10 cars(if it's not already 10 cars) long.

I rode the green line on the south side and to my view all the platorms can only hold 8 cars, but I will have to take a look at it when I ride on that side again.

JamesT4 wrote:There are many stations that right now can hold 10 cars, but just bariely, in the state street subway it is easy to hold 10 cars since it is a contuned platform(i.e Jackson, Morone, Washington, & Lake).

What about North/Clybourn, Clark/Division, Chicago/State, Grand/State, Harrison/State and Roosevelt/State? I'm not sure all of them are long enough. You have to have some fudge in the length, otherwise you'll have trains overshooting the platform and having to backup.

F40CFan wrote:You have to have some fudge in the length, otherwise you'll have trains overshooting the platform and having to backup.

With CTA's fine "transit operators" at the helm?! Unheard of!

I'm just going by memory, but I believe all the subway stations were built long enough to handle 10-car trains.

What is "Line 3 Green"? The CTA doesn't use numbered routes for the rapid transit.

That's my own colour/numbering system I use to identify the lines easily. Better for me when I ride the EL there. I came up with it in 1991 when I first came to Chicago for EL railfanning.