Long Island Railroad Expansion

Good Morning Everybody,

I've decided to participate in this marvelous transportation community because I am seriously pursuing answers to some burning questions.

The first and greatest of my queries is, why when NJ Transit has plans in existence to promote its expansion, the LIRR has none involving route creation or expansion, save the East Side Access and the reshaping of the Eastern Branches? As a subset, I have a series of other inquiries:

What is stopping the LIRR from rebuilding the Central Branch extension from Country Life Press to Bethpage as an alternative to the Third track on the main line which is getting bogged down?

Also, is it reasonable to think that a spur should be built to prospective Lighthouse development in Uniondale? How about one for Heartland Town Square, using the already existent spur for the Pilgrim Psychiatric Center?

What is stopping the LIRR from rebuilding the North-South link between the Hempstead and West Hempstead branches? Is it simply not useful?

Will the Bay Ridge Branch be utilized for passenger traffic within the next 50 years?

Is it totally farcical to contemplate the reconstruction of the Wading River Branch, with a future potential for expansion to Riverhead?

Also, how busy, approximately, is the remaining central branch extension from Bethpage to Babylon? Can it accomodate increased passenger service?

In the case of the Central Branch right of way east of the Meadowbrook Parkway, and the Wading river Branch east of Port Jeff Station, I am aware that LIPA possesses the old right-of-way, is it wrong to contemplate that they could grant an easement to the LIRR for the land necessary to run the rails?

Any responses, hints, or intimations from the railroad seers I know are out there will be vastly appreciated, thank you.

There is a LIRR thread on this forum, you might have a better chance at a response there.

Jon

Dukechristo87 wrote:Good Morning Everybody,

I've decided to participate in this marvelous transportation community because I am seriously pursuing answers to some burning questions.

Thanks for buttering us up , but as Jon mentions, there is a Long Island Railroad forum just below this general forum. I'm moving the thread there, where you'll find a better response.

Most projects are stopped by public opposition and financial reasons. The West Hempstead-CLP link is nonexistant because the ROW would put the line right down the middle of several dangerous road intersections.

Central Branch Garden City-Bethpage is all public opposition problems, I don't think any homes will need to be acquired for it.
Central Branch Bethpage-Babylon sees almost all Montauk branch trains that run to Jamaica. There are plans to electrify it.

Ridership would be so low, and construction costs so high that it would be cheaper to send a limo for every prospective rider.

Local public transit on LI sucks, from what I've read. The busses don't run often enough. I don't see many of them at capacity, like when I rode Q17 in Queens, to go to Main St/7 Train.

So now, I live 4 blocks from Westbury Sta., and work in Roslyn, at LIE and Willis Ave. How convenient would it be for me to board at Westbury, go west to Mineola, then catch train on OB Branch to Roslyn? Although, due to the mess on LIE today, I wished I did.
Communities throughout this country are getting so dense, that public transit must be a viable alternative.
But it takes a change of mindset of all to even think about it.
Yes, it takes a lot of $$$, and the nimby's have to be dealt with.
There is no easy answer for this. LI is different from NJ, where there was/is much more rail infrastructure, i.e, the Lackawanna Cutoff. Possible revive on that in talks, commuter/Amtrak from NYC to Scranton. Used to be commonplace.
Joe

What is stopping the LIRR from rebuilding the Central Branch extension from Country Life Press to Bethpage as an alternative to the Third track on the main line which is getting bogged down?

In the case of the Central Branch right of way east of the Meadowbrook Parkway, and the Wading river Branch east of Port Jeff Station, I am aware that LIPA possesses the old right-of-way, is it wrong to contemplate that they could grant an easement to the LIRR for the land necessary to run the rails?

The LIRR still owns the ROW of the old Central Branch. LIPA was granted an easement by the Railroad. Community opposition would stop this and has stopped any plans for its reopening. Considering that trains haven't been run on it since 1939 (except for a short time to build Levittown), this isn't a case that the people moved in and wanted the RR to stop service. It will never happen because it would destroy the neighborhoods it runs through.

What is stopping the LIRR from rebuilding the North-South link between the Hempstead and West Hempstead branches? Is it simply not useful?

Again, community opposition.

As long as the LIRR receives public subsidies to survive, the public through their elected officials will have a say on how the Railroad runs and direct its plans for any expansion. This is reality.

The Bay Ridge Branch goes through a part of Brooklyn that is well served by subways. The rest of the area that it passes
through is more or less a wasteland. In addition it would be difficult to access New York or Brooklyn. It would cost a fortune
and not provide any useful passenger service either.
Noel Weaver

What is the state of bus-train connections on Long Island? How do commuters pay for buses? Is there automated fair collection?

It seems to me that if the MTA could think wholistically about getting people from their cul-de-sac to the train terminal and back--in an efficient manner--then rail usage would increase. Perhaps it makes sense to create a subscription-based van service run by private operators.

I say all this because once there is more universal usage of the rails, then there can be a greater lobby for projects that expand service.

Dukechristo87 wrote: What is stopping the LIRR from rebuilding the Central Branch extension from Country Life Press to Bethpage as an alternative to the Third track on the main line which is getting bogged down?

You'd tear through neighborhoods that never had rail lines through them, are rather crowded, and would be riddled with grade crossings.

Also, is it reasonable to think that a spur should be built to prospective Lighthouse development in Uniondale? How about one for Heartland Town Square, using the already existent spur for the Pilgrim Psychiatric Center?

Lighthouse hasn't even happened. Heck, the expanded EAB plaza plans didn't either. The ridership might be there, but NCC and the Islanders aren't a big draw. Of course, if the area was forward looking, a HUGE convention center + fast rail service + some logistics could make a viable replacement for that stupid (too small, too expensive) Javits mess on the west side...

What is stopping the LIRR from rebuilding the North-South link between the Hempstead and West Hempstead branches? Is it simply not useful?

No incentive to provide north/south or 'loop' service.

Will the Bay Ridge Branch be utilized for passenger traffic within the next 50 years?

No.

Is it totally farcical to contemplate the reconstruction of the Wading River Branch, with a future potential for expansion to Riverhead?

Under the current operating style and equipment/operational options out there, yes. Under a realistic set of regulations and a forward thinking management, no.

Also, how busy, approximately, is the remaining central branch extension from Bethpage to Babylon? Can it accomodate increased passenger service?

It could but it won't. Grab a sheet of paper. Draw a box on it. Write '"Long island Rail Road Thinking" inside it. That's your biggest issue.

In the case of the Central Branch right of way east of the Meadowbrook Parkway, and the Wading river Branch east of Port Jeff Station, I am aware that LIPA possesses the old right-of-way, is it wrong to contemplate that they could grant an easement to the LIRR for the land necessary to run the rails?.

The Central's not going to come back as a line that crosses the Meadowbrook, unless you're talking a small (one track) terminal in Eisenhower Park. Not worth it in a passenger:buck perspective - who the hell wants to go there anyway?

A pretty good discussion about the 3rd Track Project and rebuilding the Central Branch can be found here: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... &sk=t&sd=a

Nasadowsk wrote:Dukechristo87 wrote:
What is stopping the LIRR from rebuilding the Central Branch extension from Country Life Press to Bethpage as an alternative to the Third track on the main line which is getting bogged down?


You'd tear through neighborhoods that never had rail lines through them, are rather crowded, and would be riddled with grade crossings.

This tear up of neighborhoods always perplexed me. Following the ROW using Google maps shows the neighborhoods are already divided by the LIPA power lines. There are 4 highways (Meadowbrook, Wantagh, RT135 & Bethpage) and maybe 3 local roads to cross that could be accommodated with over/under passes to eliminate grade crossings. What seems to be the bigger problems are the golf course at Eisenhower Park (probably get the most anti CB support), having to pass thru the prison complex and the new housing where the in service CB and Main Line meet between Farmingdale and Bethpage (although, most of these new houses look empty, so might be bought back pretty cheap).

As stated in the linked discussion, the use of the Central Branch should have been given as an option vs current 3rd Track project. A Central Branch proposal might have been sold to public by showing very little property takeovers and should been coupled with burial of the LIPA powerlines so only trains passing every so often vs permanent high power lines BEHIND home owners yards.

Also stated in the linked discussion, too bad Mr. Mosses and Mr. Levitt did not see the potential for this branch way back when.

We always though that the old CRRLI between Flushing and Floral Park would be an interesting revitalization and made some inquires about it when he was in that line of work.

The Railroad had a pressing need to bypass Jamaica with some of its new service, and with its planned Ronkonkoma expansion, the CRR was given a look. As the picture forms to readers here, the community opposition was thought to be too strong to make such a revitalization successful. Though the LIRR still owns or would have access to most of the land of that century-old abandonment, and much of it transverses parks, community opposition was thought to be a sure deterrent to the project.

A similar fate became of preliminary studies to revive Wading River service. Not only wouldn't people want a railroad right of way in their back yards, but the potential of parking lots, stations and the scourge that come with them wouldn't give them a chance.

Rightfully so, Tool believes that nobody paying $12,000 in property taxes should have their own money used to destroy their biggest investment and degrade their quality of life.

LongIslandTool wrote:nobody paying $12,000 in property taxes should have their own money used to destroy their biggest investment and degrade their quality of life.

If a railroad running nearby "degrades" (quotes added to show dubiousness of claim) someones quality of life...their battle shouldn't be with the LIRR, it should be with the guards in Creedmoor.

Who is the State to take my tax dollars and use them to depreciate my property without compensation? Miller Place isn't Long Island City.

Railroad rights-of-way are a scourge to adjacent property owners. Nobody but a foamy buff would want a diesel train laid up 15 feet from their bedroom or passing by at 70 MPH.

Unfortunately, too many of them live in Mom's basement and couldn't afford the house even at its diminished value. If they could, then we suppose those homes would retain their market appeal and value.

To the rescue:

Ferroequinologist Property Retention BIll

The answer is clear. The Govm't needs a po'gram to subsidize railroad buffs' home acqusition, therein assuring the retention of market desirability and property values of secluded suburban properties plagued by newly formed rights of way and other railborne scourges.

Gosh, Tool's going to work for Obama!

diffusedmind wrote: If a railroad running nearby "degrades" (quotes added to show dubiousness of claim) someones quality of life...their battle shouldn't be with the LIRR, it should be with the guards in Creedmoor.

Really? If I spent a few hundred thousand on a home, and the LIRR decided to push a RR line through a 'right of way' that exists only on old maps, and ran behind my home, I'd be pretty pissed, too. For one thing, my house would have just dropped significantly in value, and I'm not getting compensated for it.

The fact is, the noise/vibration footprint of the typical US passenger train is not something anyone wants in their back yard, period - home values reflect that. And these aren't dormant rail lines or unused freight spurs - they're 'lines' that haven't even had tracks on them since before the Vietnam War. For all intents, they're 'new build'.

The world is not full of foamers who are all excited by the prospect of a big bad diesel locomotive parked outside their family room all night, it's full of people who, by and large, don't care about trains and don't want to be bothered by them. Either make the trains acceptable to them, or deal with the reality that you'll face stiff opposition to your grand schemes to put a station on every street corner.