Long Island Railroad Expansion

Pooch, I totally feel your rant yet am thankful Im too young to know any different.

That said, I still LOVE the irony in your Crooked Politicians quote when you wrote from Chicago.

The only difference in crooked politics in your area is that they blindfolded you and use lube.


I am not in a position to offer expertise on how to run the LIRR but as far as routes go, it seems that the Babylon branch has several stations that are way too close together. Massapequa and Mass Park(my mother ran that one foe years) are an example.

I would recommend having consolidating some of those and opening more stations and service out east.

The LIRR comes up with these projections that services are NOT needed yet I dont buy it. East end service is so bad that the Jitney opened to serve a void.

Another thing that always bugged me. With so many trains through Hicksville, and a few that use the Central to go to Babylon, they should allow any train using the mainline but headed to Babylon to stop at Hicksville. I went to Stony Brook and had to sometimes trek to Babylon. Why trek all the way to Jamaica and back? Its nonsense and there is no logical reason why it can't happen.

Only once was I ever able, on Dec 7 in the late 1990s, to literally catch the eastbound Montauk that stopped in Hicksville after unboarding the westbound PJ train. And to do it, I literally jumped onto the rear MP15ac. It was a desperate college panicked move. But after screaming to the montauk bound train to hold the train (after the conductor peeked out for a microsecond!!), I just pounced.

The last half-dozen or so responses, while far-sighted and well thought out, have absolutely and utterly nothing whatsoever to do with expanding the Long Island Rail Road. Isn't there a forum somewhere for discussing the high cost of living in New York?

I live in a semi-rural area of northeastern Indiana, and for a rural area, I've always felt that I'm getting soaked on property taxes but there I go! I don't suppose that has much to do with the LIRR either.

Fred M. Cain,
Topeka, Indiana

Lets just face facts that with all the political and environmental bs, the lack of MTA money and the nimby's that the chance of a LIRR expansion is pretty slim.
You may have better odds playing the lottery.

Fred, as you can see in my last post, I am trying to put this train back on its proper tracks. In my experience from moderating internet forums for 9 years, its better to re-direct the conservation back on track as opposed to repeating what we can already see or worse, locking the thread if it really goes off track. Please help me out in putting this track back on track by discussing expansion. Thanks.


Other expansion thoughts besides less service on Babylon Branch and more out east. More use of he Central branch. Why don't all Montauk trains stop at hicksville. That is a via point directly connecting the north and south. Why make passengers go way west to Jamaica if they want to go to Babylon from say, PJ?

"Lets just face facts that with all the political and environmental bs, the lack of MTA money and the nimby's that the chance of a LIRR expansion is pretty slim. You may have better odds playing the lottery.BobLI

<snip>

Other expansion thoughts besides less service on Babylon Branch and more out east. More use of he Central branch. Why don't all Montauk trains stop at hicksville. That is a via point directly connecting the north and south. Why make passengers go way west to Jamaica if they want to go to Babylon from say, PJ?"

Bob,

Trying to respond to two posts at once here, I think those are good thoughts. Money is always a problem and yet we might be entering a sea change in transportation funding. There seems to be a very slowly building consensus nationwide that we need more funding for rail transit and intercity rail projects. The Obama Administration was really pushing this but now with a change in the Congress again, things have been thrown back into doubt. My prediction is that after the dust settles we will end up with an interuption in rail transit funding but in the end things will probably resume again. It took almost 40 years to reintroduce rail transit to the Los Angeles area with many fits and starts. Could also be happening at the national level?

Your ideas of the Montauk and Central branches make a lot of sense too. The whole concept of suburb-to-suburb commutes seems to be growing as well. Another example, if the West Hempstead - Country Life - Mineola link were ever re-established, this would allow commuting from Oyster Bay to Valley Stream and intermediate points.

Could this happen right away? Doubful. But after the East Side project is behind us (not for another six years!) they might just look at some of these ideas.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

Although it was a consideration, after 9 years, not a chance. The forums are much more enjoyable without the snarkiness of some.

Tool, I'd like to enlist your help in making it a more intersting conversation.

What are your thoughts about Li expansion. You probably have more of a realistic feel of that is immediately possible and plausible.

however, if you could, from an objective standpoint, suppose you had budget with a lot of black ink. What improvements/expansion would you propose?

Thats what all of us would like to know about tool too? Who is he?

Thats not fair! Almost everybody is hiding.

actually it was not off track, it was about how expensive the NYC area already is, and how high the tolls and everything else are. The only way any expansion can come would be through even higher tolls and taxes.
I really never heard any plans for new rail lines while working for the RR.
I did hear rumors of eletricification for certain areas, like the Port Jeff Branch or central Branch, and of course the 3rd mainline track between Queens, and Divide.
Like it or not, the LIRR is a Commuter railroad. Its first Job is to take people from LI to NYC and back for work, and lesiure activities.
That is of course the main thrust of the LIRR and always will be.
"The route of the Dashing Commuter".
Long Island is only 23 miles wide at its widest point, and narrower at most places.
Its much more cost effective to run busses across the Island as they do now.
I hear from time to time people complaining about not being able to get from say hicksville to babylon.
Not a whole lot of people commute from hicksville to babylon, neither place is a hotbed of office complexes or jobs.
However when I retired, there were a couple of trains that stopped at Hicksville and babylon in the morning and evening, I dont know if they run now.
Best bet would be to take the LI busses that go from hicksville to the south shore stations.
As far as service east of KO?
Since they Electrified the RR to Ronkonkoma, the scoots have hardly anyone on them.
Most people would rather drive to KO.
The Scoot is usually the Job most Conductors retire off of, the reason being is its a day off, very few people on the trains.
The job does not even have a brake man, just a Conductor and Engineer. There is nothing but pine barrens and farms east of KO down the center of Long Island.. miles and miles of nothing.
This is nothing new, in the 60's we had a summer house in Port Jeff, and later wading river.
The railroad ran buses instead of trains east of KO then too due to lack of riders.
Except of course on friday nights and monday mornings.
Its such a sweet job that in my last year on the RR, I worked it as often as I could.
The regular Conductor on the afternoon scoot broke his leg, and I would Cover it off the list every day, even though I lived in Bayside and had to drive to KO every day..
No one on the trains, and 3 hours ot due to the last trip to Greenport and back.
Except on friday nights when there were people going to shelter island.
Nice easy ride in the country, without the hassles of dealing with the crowds in Penn.
Now as a Conductor of 34 years, I support Rail service, its good for the environment and good for jobs, however at the present time.. the Greenport scoot is a dead horse.
Best you can hope for is some sort of a Light rail train, like the ones in Newark.... Basicaly a bus on rails.

Probably the most realistic and useful route extension would be the reactivation of the Port Jefferson to Wading River route. There is certainly demand and a huge population from that area that commutes via Ronkonkoma.

The problem is that unless the branch were electrified, most passengers would continue to opt for driving to Ronkonkoma.

If it were electrified, it would draw passengers from the Main Line who already use the railroad. I doubt many new riders would take to the rails. So the return on the investment probably isn't there.

As Wilson states, at best perhaps we'll see some light rail in North-South corridors, but the cost of building track so far exceeds the cost of operating buses that I don't anticipate anyone sinking money into this for a long long time.

Do be sure of this: As the State kills of jobs and the income of Nassau and Suffolk plummets, there will be increased demand for mass transit. The transformation of these counties into low income socialist quagmires like New York City depends greatly on the introduction of cheap, efficient transportation.

One thing interesting about Chicago is the CTA, or Chicago Transit Authority. Most of it is still elevated, with only a few lines underground.
One interesting section Runs down the middle of route 90, the main North south interstate through Chicago.
It runs from Ohaire airport to the south side.
My Pastor here is a big Atlanta braves fan. Last summer, The Braves Played the white sox in inter league Play, so we went to the game.
We decided to drive, but when we saw the heavy traffic, we parked the car and took the CTA right to the Ballpark.
The CTA has a station right outside Comiskey ( i refuse to call it us cellular), and a ramp right to the ballpark.The Cubs also have a station right behind Wrigley. In the Cubs case, thats the only way to go, Wrigley has very little parking, just a couple of small lots in the neigborhood the park is in.
photo taken from inside the ball park ( not by me) looking out at the trains.


THIS might be the facepalm no one wants...although Im sure I have gotten a few..

wilsonpooch wrote: Now as a Conductor of 34 years, I support Rail service, its good for the environment and good for jobs, however at the present time.. the Greenport scoot is a dead horse.
Best you can hope for is some sort of a Light rail train, like the ones in Newark.... Basicaly a bus on rails.

The Scoots are a dead horse, as you call it, because we have a superior option to the LIRR, the Hampton Jitney.

With the recent fare increases, the HJ North Fork fare is cheaper than the LIRR Zone 14 peak fare, and comparing the LIRR Zone 14 fare to the
HJ 12 trip Value pack fare, the HJ is only about 25 cents more.

With the recent suspension of year round weekend scoot service, we are managing out here just fine.

Ronkonkoma is NEVER an option.


Ken

Unless I am missing something, doesn't the HJ have to pass through "World's largest parking lot" (officially called the "Long Island Expressway")???

...Ken

The point I am making is Ronkonkoma is the option most people who commute from east of ronkonkoma make. They would rather drive to Ronkomkoma and park there then have to get off a diesel and onto an electric at ronkonkoma.
I suppose now that Speonk has 261 in effect, more people drive to the south shore stations too.
I worked the trains I know about the lack of Passengers east of KO.
Electrifying it east of KO would not draw a single extra rider.
All it would mean is people parking at Medford and Yaphank instead of KO.
Hardly worth spending hundreds of millions of dollars on.
The population of peconic Ny is 11 hundred people, probably none of who commute to NYC every day for work.
So NY state should spent hundreds or million of dollars for 11 hundred people?
Not gonna happen in the near future. A hampton Jitney 12 pack value pack is 18.25 one way. The average days a person works in a month is 20 or more. ( 5 days a week times 4). That means a person riding on hampton Jitney would have to pay 18.25 a day each way, or 36.50 a day... times that by the averarage 20 working days a month, thats 730 dollars a month. Minimum. Some months have more then 20 working days
The LIRR Monthy fare WITH metro card is $524.42 to zone 14 That means ya get the RR and subway unlimited for the month. (thats every day. not 20, unlimited rides.)
The LIRR monthly fare to 14 without the metro card is $429.00, every day on the LIRR unlimited.
Explain to me again how jitney is cheaper for a commuter?
The Railroad built new high level platforms all the way to greenport. Upgraded its trains to modern comfortable Bi-levels with air conditioning, they spent hundreds of millions to provide better service to Greenport , has the lowest fares by hundreds of dollars.. yet no one came.
Its not the RR's fault, and would be foolhardy in this economy to spend millions and millions more for pine barrens and farms.
Maybe someday when more people move out east.

kinlock wrote:Unless I am missing something, doesn't the HJ have to pass through "World's largest parking lot" (officially called the "Long Island Expressway")???...Ken

The HOV lanes have made a huge difference here, and once in Queens the HJ busses use detour routes to get around LIE bottlenecks.

Further it's not like the LIRR speeds through Queens, the "Jamaica Crawl" can be as bad as the worse LIE bottleneck.

"The population of peconic Ny is 11 hundred people, probably none of who commute to NYC every day for work.
So NY state should spent hundreds or million of dollars for 11 hundred people?
Not gonna happen in the near future. A hampton Jitney 12 pack value pack is 18.25 one way. The average days a person works in a month is 20 or more. ( 5 days a week times 4). That means a person riding on hampton Jitney would have to pay 18.25 a day each way, or 36.50 a day... times that by the averarage 20 working days a month, thats 730 dollars a month. Minimum. Some months have more then 20 working days
The LIRR Monthy fare WITH metro card is $524.42 to zone 14 That means ya get the RR and subway unlimited for the month. (thats every day. not 20, unlimited rides.)
The LIRR monthly fare to 14 without the metro card is $429.00, every day on the LIRR unlimited.
Explain to me again how jitney is cheaper for a commuter?"

It's called knowing your market, and in the 21st century many people do not commute 5 days per week. Many people on the east end may work in a city office 1 or 2 days per week, and then work from home or an east end office the other 2 to 3 days.

Further many of us have negotiated with our employers to pay for our HJ tickets. Yes, in the non-union world it's amazing what adults can negotiate
directly with their employers. In my companies case they buy HJ value packs in bulk, which lowers the price even more. I only work in the city
one day per week.

Since HJ bought out Sunrise Express 5 years ago there has been no reason for me to use the LIRR.

Frankly the payroll tax and other additional taxes that we pay on the east end is robbery considering the poor LIRR service that we get.

I say end all east end LIRR service and take the 5 east end towns out of the MTA district !


Ken