Long Island Railroad Expansion

Mark777 suggested electrifying all branches. But electrification requires not only the installation of third rail, but the construction of substations (about one per mile, with 750 v.d.c traction current), plus isolation of signal circuits. The enormous cost of doing this needs to be justified by the frequency of service, which in turn needs to be justified by the ridership. For example, ridership on the Oyster Bay branch has dropped to the point where off-peak service is down to a train about every two hours. Want to electrify this branch and keep the juice turned on all day? The Port Jefferson branch would make sense to electrify all the way. But I can't see North Fork traffic justifying electrification. The Montauk Branch? Maybe as far out as Patchogue.

keyboardkat wrote: For example, ridership on the Oyster Bay branch has dropped to the point where off-peak service is down to a train about every two hours.

Of course the ridership's low - the service sucks, has sucked for years, and continues to suck, despite the LIRR's various promises over the years. It's slow, barely reliable, you get the transfer into a packed train at Jamacia, and it's slow. Did I mention it's slow? It's also slow, which isn't helped by the anemic DE/DM-30s.

Cut it back to Glen Street and electrify it, and get it a usable speed, and you'd actually get ridership. It sure as hell isn't a lack of population or traffic (ever been on Glen Cove Road during the rush?)

Want to electrify this branch and keep the juice turned on all day?

Why not? The parasitic losses are squat unless you've got crap insulation.

The Port Jefferson branch would make sense to electrify all the way.

The PJ should have been electrifed 15 or 20 years ago. Of course, LI's insane electric rates, thanks in part to the brain dead folks out east who couldn't stomach living next to a running (and now beyond desperately needed) Shoreham, pretty much make electrification on LI a lost cause, period.

But I can't see North Fork traffic justifying electrification. The Montauk Branch? Maybe as far out as Patchogue.

Until electric rates get down to a reasonable level on LI, I can't see any more third rail going in. And frankly, since unicorns and rainbows don't exactly generate much electricity, and LI's needs keep growing, and the rest of the tri-state area's sick of LIPA running around with an extension cord looking for an outlet, don't expect anything to change there.

Coal can't be built, gas can't be built, oil can't be built, nukes, oh forget that anywhere in the northeast, wind and solar ain't worth squat, and nobody wants to turn the thermostat up from 50 degrees or give up their 50 inch plasma in every room or their Hollywood soundstage outdoor lighting....

Coal can't be built, gas can't be built, oil can't be built, nukes, oh forget that anywhere in the northeast, wind and solar ain't worth squat, and nobody wants to turn the thermostat up from 50 degrees or give up their 50 inch plasma in every room or their Hollywood soundstage outdoor lighting....[/quote]

Boy, life really stinks, doesn't it, Nasadowsk? Who was it who said, "Hell is other people"?

keyboardkat wrote:
Boy, life really stinks, doesn't it, Nasadowsk? Who was it who said, "Hell is other people"?

Doesn't stink too bad for me - I moved to NJ. My parents are still on LI and they don't care to hear about my electric bill or about how reliable my power is. Something about paying 1/2 as much and the lights not going out very often tends to get them...upset.

I do miss getting out onto LI so much (I'm stuck servicing lower NJ these days and only get out there on some weekends). Last big project was Port Jefferson's sewer plant, a beautiful little plant on the hill overlooking the bay....

(OB train content: was also involved with that turd herder right at the end of the OB line. Many interesting stories about that one. Is it really true there's a tree in town with a plaque mentioning that Billy Joel hit it?)

The last estimate I heard was about $70 million/mile for electrification. That's probably doubled by now.

The LIRR hasn't paid for electricity in over eight years. It's one of the factors that LIPA quotes as contributing to their high rates. They have been in a dispute over rates and metering, and there is little motivation between the State agencies to resolve it.

Socialism in action, I suppose.

These debates have existed as long as the forums here have been established.
The diesel equipment is already ten years old, and much money is spent just maintaining what ROW and equipment is here.

Can any of the proponants of expansion tell me where all this money would come from to expand anything?

I cant afford any more taxes, and I cant pay $50 each way to cross the Throgs Neck and Verrazano Bridges.
First the long and expensive process of studying actual potential usage, and the studies to study the results of the studies.. Then the endless 'impact to the environment' studies, then the proposals, then the treehuggers lawsuits challenging the environment study results, then the round of community NIMBY opposition with inherent lawsuits, followed by dribbling politicians trying to figure out which way to support, to make sure they can win the next election. So far, only the consultant firms (relatives of some MTA cronies) and lawyers are amking money and not a single rail laid down. This would be followed by years of debate in Newsday, people on News12 weeping about losing the LIPA ROW and its garbage, drug addicts, and ATVs, the whining about loss of quality of life. This followed by broken promises of and then a study to see who will ride the new lines in old ROWs, and then the diesels need to be replaced and new ones cost $6,000,000,000 each to be built 'green' and in NY, and finally the election of new officials who promise to kill the RR expansion.

then long island will wash away with the tides and all of us will be long gone, dead and buried. None of this will happen, we can't afford the MTA we have now, it cant grow, it can only raise bridge tolls and threaten to end services on less used branches.

Good thing we have had 'change' under Barack Obama. I hope all the 'intellectuals' who campaigned are enjoying how little is being done for transportation in this country.

workextra wrote:Out of the above 2 project which one will provide the better bang for the taxpayer buck.
Let's see some non biased and fair discussion. This is not a battle of realism, or personal opinion.

Can anyone deny that a rebuilt 2 track electrified Central Branch ROW from the Hempstead Branch off Garden City 2ndary to the current Main Line/Central Branch interchange would give more bang for the buck?

Legal arguments become: No regular service for 80+ years and no tracks for 40+ years along LIRR owned Central ROW, property owners had no belief a ROW would be built BEHIND their property VS. 2 track Main Line for how many years, property owners along this active ROW had no belief RR would TAKE their property. In the case of the Central, the LIRR could mitigate the impact of the rebuilt ROW on affected neighborhoods with no grade crossings and using fences/trenching/embankments to reduce noise/sight of trains, while 3rd Track will have to compensate for taking of property and neither will never fully satisfy the owners. The 3rd Track already is and this Central would be AN UGLY BATTLE, but which might gain more support from overall public?

Again, we and our children are paying for the lack of foresight by certain planners/policials mentioned in previous posts.

badneighbor wrote:Good thing we have had 'change' under Barack Obama. I hope all the 'intellectuals' who campaigned are enjoying how little is being done for transportation in this country.

I am not Democrat or Republican, but you really believe that all our problems came about over the last 10 months? Anybody knows when dealing with Government, change does not happen overnight.

While it's reasonably assured that we all want to see a revitalization of the Central Branch in some form, we must also understand what time has done to prevent that reality. Time has provided us with the intertwined network of rail and highway that makes suburban Long Island a desirable place to live. This same network and these suburbs prevent any full scale revitalization of the Central Branch from being a reality.

Oh sure let's tear up Eisenhower Park, Levittown, Plainedge... for an extra two track LIRR line. That's one bill sure to pass.

I'd rather a more realistic approach perhaps restoring the line to active passenger service terminating at NCC/Nassau Coliseum. A connection to light rail can then be made, if the existing freight rail infrastructure is restored which would provide service to the areas two malls(with possible shuttle bus service from the Source Mall to the LIRR Main Line). Never mind the possibility of freight service if the mall is connected, there's a few thousand trucks off the road right there. That's something I can realistically see happening, and will need to happen if the Lighthouse project progresses beyond words.

I do know this is off topic.
But. If the light house project ever sees light, the only logistical means of transportation of C&D and new material would be via RAIL and via the Central line. The line where 35 used to be would have to be reconnected, restored and extended to the construction site along Charles Lindbergh Blvd.
Costly I'm sure, but logistically a safer bet then any other means of transportation in that area it's worth the extra money for my and your safety.

comment: doesn't NY have extremely strict diesel anti idling laws? NY State Police is real quick to enforce enviromental laws, at the end of the month Local jurisdictions are also pretty good about enforcement. Especially if locals are complaining.

New York state law has no Jurisdiction over the LIRR. on the right-of-way i believe only the FRA has Jurisdiction. otherwise local villages / municipalities / counties could all tell the LIRR how to operate.

Oh wait....that's how it is anyway.

KBK: I recall that substations need to be about every 2-21/2 miles to provide optimum current
but also remember that a train draws the most power starting up in amperes so each station needs a substation adjacent to provide this added power.

Tool: I can NOT help but wonder how the LIRR has not paid LIPA for so long.
If it was you or me forget it!
I recall posting about wondering how the LIRR would have been electrified if they decided to
use overhead catenary instead of third rail. Any more thoughts anyone?
MACTRAXX
P.S. Happy Thanksgiving To All!!!

Had the LIRR electrified with overhead catenary, it would have of necessity used much higher voltage traction current, thus reducing the number of, and increasing the distances between, substations.

Third rail is necessary with traction current as low as 600-750 vdc with heavy duty rail equipment because at those voltages, the large amperages drawn would burn the catenary contact wire. The 3000 vdc Lackawanna 1930 electrification, with five times the voltage of your standard (at the time) 600 vdc third rail system, required a substation only about every five miles.

But the LIRR, which had experimented with 11,000 v a.c. catenary on a temporary installation along the Central line around the turn of the last century, would have gone with that type of system, which was later used by the NH and the PRR. Substations would have been few and far between. Maybe that would have been better, in hindsight. But what's done is done, and the present system has served reliably for 104 years.

And just imagine, had the LIRR gone with 11 k.v.a.c., which would have been compatible with the Pennsy's 1933 electrification.

We would have seen GG1s on Long Island on through trains from the south and west!