Long Island Railroad Expansion

Nasadowsk wrote:The fact is, the noise/vibration footprint of the typical US passenger train is not something anyone wants in their back yard, period - home values reflect that.

Common belief in an idea doesn't make it valid. It is comical how you seem to think these people are opposed to the trains themselves though.

Nasadowsk wrote:

diffusedmind wrote: If a railroad running nearby "degrades" (quotes added to show dubiousness of claim) someones quality of life...their battle shouldn't be with the LIRR, it should be with the guards in Creedmoor.

Really? If I spent a few hundred thousand on a home, and the LIRR decided to push a RR line through a 'right of way' that exists only on old maps, and ran behind my home, I'd be pretty pissed, too. For one thing, my house would have just dropped significantly in value, and I'm not getting compensated for it.

The fact is, the noise/vibration footprint of the typical US passenger train is not something anyone wants in their back yard, period - home values reflect that. And these aren't dormant rail lines or unused freight spurs - they're 'lines' that haven't even had tracks on them since before the Vietnam War. For all intents, they're 'new build'.

The world is not full of foamers who are all excited by the prospect of a big bad diesel locomotive parked outside their family room all night, it's full of people who, by and large, don't care about trains and don't want to be bothered by them. Either make the trains acceptable to them, or deal with the reality that you'll face stiff opposition to your grand schemes to put a station on every street corner.

But if your house is close enough to a train station wouldn't your property values increase from new commuting options?

1st I want to make clear the area of the Central Branch of LI I was referring: Meadowbrook Parkway to Mainline/Central Branch interchange (is that still considered Bethpage?).

In this section of the abandoned ROW, except for the park/golf course, prison and LIPA power lines there seem to be no housing (including back yards) or commercial structures ON the ROW. Those people choose to live along this abandoned ROW with HUGH visible power lines BEHIND their back yards. SO I have to ask: how much value would be lost if those readily visible power lines were replaced by the occasional passing train? I ask this considering the amount of housing that has been constructed right next to the IN service main line over the past 10 years.

Should the Central Branch be reactivated? I do not know. Considering the community opposition to the current 3rd Track plan with its use of eminent domain, should not taxpayers and riders have been presented with a Central Branch option where eminent domain would be minimal (if at all)?

Those people along the abandoned central ROW didn't choose to live with a railroad in their backyard. Its been closed to train service since 1939. That area was developed in the 1950's when the railroad was long gone. They aren't complaining about the LIPA towers but would fight a railroad. The single biggest investment of the middle-class type of people who live along that old ROW are their homes. There is no reason to destroy a neighborhood that is completely residential with a railroad so buffs can take pictures. The railroad brings blight, noise and a decrease in property values. They didn't move next to the railroad like other nimbys. Anyone who would applaud the destruction in property values and ruin of neighborhoods is either living with mommy or a tenant. Put your life into something and then watch the opinions change. The area through Levittown and East Meadow along the route to Bethpage is most definately smack through residential neighborhoods right along backyards.

M&Eman wrote: But if your house is close enough to a train station wouldn't your property values increase from new commuting options?

Depends. Is it a usable commuting option? I live near Lincoln Park's station. I doubt it's a deciding factor or anyone out here - it certainly didn't affect my rent vs other potential sites.

Publius Plunkett wrote:There is no reason to destroy a neighborhood that is completely residential with a railroad so buffs can take pictures.

Yea, the ONLY reason to reactive and rebuild the Central Branch from the Garden City 2ndary to the Ronkonkama/Greenport Branch at the the current CB/ML interchange is for railroad buffs. With the potential for 2 tracks, this option would not increase capacity on the LIRR - even more so than the current 3rd Track project. Guess this is why the 3rd Track project is meeting so much resistance, it must be for buffs as well.

Lets face it, most places the LIRR would want to add capacity, residential neighborhoods are going to be affected. Under the 3rd Track project, a good number of people who put their life into something ARE watching the opinions change to the where they could LOOSE that something and/or see the possible destruction in values and neighborhoods. The point is that both have negative effects on the communities this service pass thru, but which would have the biggest benefit to least negative?

All I am saying is that the options should have been presented to the taxpayers and riders to decide.

Again, as I stated in my other posts, it was too bad Mr. Mosses and Mr. Levitt could not see the potential of this section of the Central Branch and made their plans accordingly - if they did, LIRR would not be having its capacity problems now or this discussion.

None of the stuff mentioned above will ever see the light of day. Not in our lifetime. The ideas make very good sense, and not to a rail buff, but to anyone who has a desire to provide a reliable public transportation system to areas that lack it, for the sake of the environment as a whole, and not as a solitary problem. The orginal Central Branch should have been first considered before opting for the third track on the mainline. NIMBYs put aside, the former Central Branch would be a less intrusive option, as minimal property would be taken, if any, to create this line. It would also serve a highly congested area of Nassau county which is truly, half way between the mainline and Montauk branches. It would by default, serve NCC, Light House Project, and several other areas that don't have reliable public service. The problem? The tracks were gone before these neighborhoods were built. No train has past there in decades, and no matter what some say about powerlines and what dangers the present, they are, regardless, a quiet neighboor. Nobody in Levitown, East Meadow, or most certainly Garden City, would allow such a thing to fly. SO..... a few people in Carle Place, Mineola and New Hyde Park will or might, have their properties taken to build a third track. Why? because the tracks are there, they always have, and will be the less "vocal opposition" option on the table.

A connection between Hempstead and the West Hempstead branch will not support the cost associated with building the line in the first place, although a "North South" branch is greatly needed regardless of what anyone says. If you build such a thing, New ridership would be created in a heart beat. Problem? location. A North South branch would be better on route 110, not Hempstead. And a single track operation would still limit capacity. Thinking "out of the box" however, no street crossings would be really necessary in such a project. Elevating lines, while more expensive, is still a better option. The stuff that really needs to be focused on is: Double tracking the mainline all the way out to KO and further to Riverhead. Electrify ALL branches, including out to Greenport and Montauk, Eliminate 251 territory, and create a bypass to Jamaica. And of course... Finish the ESA project before the next Ice Age comes. The 3rd track on the mainline is necessary, but only if you add capacity out to KO. The present Central Branch as has also been mentioned, is also on the list of "possibilities" for expansion, by electrifying from Beth to Babylon. The rest is all history. If the old LIRR would have saved them all, then we could have a totally different map today. But it won't ever make it back with the very NIMBY minded population of Long Island. Lastly, NJ Transit is able to expand because New Jersey is not locked by water on all four sides. It also, while highly populated, is not as cramped as Nassau county and western Suffolk county are with people, and limited space. Likewise, some of their expansion plans involve reactivating passenger service to lines which already exist for the most part, or as in the case of the line to the Poconos and Scranton, not as populated as eastern NJ. Central and south NJ are very unpopulated. Just drive south of exit 8 on the NJ turnpike, and you got squat. Expansion in mileage is logical for NJ Transit when you take into consideration of the geography of the state.

The LIRR needs to expand by first fixing the undercapacity it has on it's present lines, and bringing the entire RR up to "today's standards". Look at all the potential they have out east? Yet it still remains underserved, streets continue to get crowded, and more people continue to move east. Just because the map doesn't get bigger, doesn't mean that there is no room for expansion. There is much to still do that is much more important to our local economy.

hfcarl, have you driven through the areas of the Central ROW? It would ruin those neighborhoods. There has been an active main line along the present Mainline since the beginning of the LIRR. That's where the 3rd track belongs, not in an area where residents chose to live where the railroad disappeared in 1939.

I am on the residents side. And am happy the old Central ROW will never reopen. Phil N., BUY a home, don't rent, then see what happens to its value when a railroad is built right out front of your door. I grew up in Brooklyn with the "El" in front of the building. It was crap and cheap because of the "El". I now own a building in the same area in Brooklyn. Nearby transportation for those kind of neighborhoods impacts rent positively as long as you are not right next to it. Rentals that have the subway "El" in front are considered substandard and usually occupied by people who support their cigarette habits by picking butts up off the sidewalk.

We won't be around to see it, but Long Island will eventually get crowded enough to warrant a Central Branch resurrection.

What ever happens, The LIRR has out grown it's very own system.
The system was cut back to save cost which was the correct decision at that time, Today those cost saving decisions of the 1930s-60s period have cost the LIRR huge in limiting any potential growth.
This railroad was "completed" too many years too soon.

Publius Plunkett wrote: Phil N., BUY a home, don't rent, then see what happens to its value when a railroad is built right out front of your door.

Ahhh, I'll be hopefully buying in few years, but it won't be anywhere near the northeast. The bang:buck in northern NJ, at least, doesn't even come close to justifying it.

Anyway, it's not impossible to make a rail line low impact. There are plenty of quiet trains out there and plenty of low profile stations. Take the Riverline some day to a mid point stop, and watch a few go through. That's a modern-day noise profile. About the only FRA-compliant diesel loco I can think of that'll get close is the PL-42. The '42s a quiet unit, but not a GTW 2/6. Those things are almost quieter than the M-7s...

If it comes to the point where the Central extension MUST be reopened because its capacity is sorely needed for the public good, then the State, which owns the railroad, and the Feds, who provide some money, will have to buy out the NIMBY homeowners through a condemnation procedure, which is what they always do when private property is needed for some project. The property owner is never satisfied with the offer, and has the right to sue for more, which will provide years of a good living for lawyers, expert witnesses who will be paid exorbitant fees to do research and write long reports contradicting each other, and court reporters (like me). And the railroad will get built, without disrupting current traffic on the main line, providing years of a good living for construction workers, etc. (Several new bridges will be needed, for instance across the Meadowbrook Parkway).

How are they planning to get the property needed for the third track project along the main line, where it impinges on private owners? Aren't they going to do the same thing?

Property ownership aside, The 3rd Track/CRR debate, each has both advantages and disadvantages.

The 3rd track is a simple addition of another track along the already heavy used and populated mainline.
The mainline stations between Floral Park and Hicksville DO NOT clearly have enough parking to even thing about this 3rd track. Mineola is no exception. (remember we are at a time now where many folks are not commuting due to the economy so if lots look empty don't get you jollies off over the optical illusion).
This 3rd track only offers more flexibility to run more trains during peak hours against the peak direction of travel.
If done smart All Ronkonkoma and Huntington should make "Hicksville" first after Jamaica. and no Ronkonkoma train should have any connections at Jamaica. All local stops should be service by "Hicksville locals"

Now a look at the "Central" including 3rd rail to Babylon, Provides flexibility of "another line" should the mai line be knocked out. Provides for a "local station" as opposed to driving to a mainline station (a Green solution to pollution and help unclog already over crowded roads along the mainline). Provides for alternative intra-island service that cannot be provided without the central. Provides a reroute for some Peak Ronkonkoma and east of Babylon trains.that otherwise would be forced on the mainline.
These are just some of the "advantages" of both projects.
Have some fun playing with them!!
If taking home owners are the biggest issue in making Long Island roads safer and improving the overall transportation network then let a serious non biased study begin. A study not taking in political views or local public opposition which plagues both projects.
I want to see a fair non biased study showing where the "taxpayer" (Including You all, my self and all the nay Sayer's) will get the most bang for their obligated contribution through taxation in the next 20-50+ years.
Out of the above 2 project which one will provide the better bang for the taxpayer buck.
Let's see some non biased and fair discussion. This is not a battle of realism, or personal opinion.

If you electrify the central branch the perhaps you can reopen South Farmingdale. Or is that property gone forever, not being from that area.
And would they also open up another station further down the line to take some of the pressure off of the other mainline and babylon stations? Has this ever been discussed?

Noel Weaver wrote:The Bay Ridge Branch goes through a part of Brooklyn that is well served by subways. The rest of the area that it passes
through is more or less a wasteland. In addition it would be difficult to access New York or Brooklyn. It would cost a fortune
and not provide any useful passenger service either.
Noel Weaver

Flatlands and Glendale are not well served by subways.

I have advocated turning the LIRR from LIC to Bay Ridge via Maspeth, Glendale, Middle Village, ENY, Flatbush and Boro Park into a light rail line. Pure fantasy, but it would be well patronized.