Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

Moderator: GirlOnTheTrain

  by west point
 
There used to be operating insurance problems with runways. for what ever reason runways were many times 4998, 5998, and 6998 feet long.. instead of the next round number. Higher Hull insurance rates were often predicated on operating on those 2 -5 foot shorter runways.
Our local airport had that problem and finally was able to put in a 500 foot extension even though for a while had a displaced landing threshold.
  by eolesen
 
Yeah, that assertion goes against all logic there Westie as longer runways are typically considered safer than shorter ones... thus a lower actuarial risk, not higher.

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  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. West Point, now that you have shared here that you are an airline pilot, I'm at a total loss to understand how aircraft insurers hold "shorter is safer".

Most of my flying nowadays is overseas; as I do enjoy road trips (Amtrak; for your virtually "going private" rates and the at best "meh" experience you deliver, you're no longer in the equation). I'm sure that a Captain on a fully loaded 777 is happy to be given 13000' 10L at KORD for the "roll"; for what if Mr. Pratt or Mr. Whitney is not quite delivering his maximum thrust - and this passenger "playing Captain from Seat 6-A" is also happy as well.

Finally OT, United, please get your 777's back on your overseas routes; specifically ORD-MUC. I much prefer such to those "Nightmareliner" 787's (noted over at airliners.net; those Attendant controlled blinds "gottago").
  by eolesen
 
Well, the 787s are easier at the gas pump, especially with fuel up and loads still down.

Plus, a good chunk of the Pratt powered 777 fleet is still grounded by the FAA pending new inspections and remediation action for the blade defect found last year. Once the AD for this is officially out, those airplanes will start returning to service.

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  by Head-end View
 
I thought this was a railroad discussion board. Aviation is interesting too but maybe should be a separate thread.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Head End, since this topic is to discuss transportation to airports, I think you must be prepared to accept some leeway here regarding discussions of air transport matters. The issue of airport runway lengths and the possibility the airport authority would like to extend them if not now, someday, has direct impact upon the location of any rail transit to the airport - especially in the case of KLGA.
  by Head-end View
 
Okay then, while we're on the subject, what's with the added letter K to these three-letter airport codes?
  by eolesen
 
K is the ICAO region prefix that the US falls into. ICAO and IATA have different standards for airport codes - four characters for ICAO (the safety standards organization) and three for IATA (the commercial standards organization).

E

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  by west point
 
Sorry if syntax was incorrect. Yes longer runways now allow for lower insurance rates for that airport's based aircraft. This is pure speculation but remember that most runways built from 1939 - 1945 were built by the army air corps. Could it possibly be that an extra 2 or 3 feet would allow different aircraft to use the base or allow for different airplanes ? That may be why so many airports today are those 2 or 3 feet short ? Could it be that base commanders did not want aircraft other than their primary aircraft.? Again it just pure speculation.
I know the navy as a rule built much longer runways. Meridian MS is an example.
  by Pensyfan19
 
Very interesting proposal: Air Train to Laguardia from Jamaica instead of Mets Willets Point. Maybe this can lead to direct JFK - LGA service too!

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews ... -released/
NEW YORK — Light rail, express buses, ferry service, and subway extensions are among the new public-transit options to connect Manhattan and LaGuardia Airport released Wednesday by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

The website amNY.com reports a total of 14 options are offered as alternatives to the controversial AirTrain project that would run between the airport and subway and Long Island Rail Road stations at Willits Point in Queens. That project received the federal go-ahead last year [see “LaGuardia AirTrain project gets FAA approval,” Trains News Wire, July 21, 2021], but was subsequently placed on hold by New York Gov. Kathy Hochul over neighborhood concerns, as well as the roundabout nature of the AirTrain connection.
  by lpetrich
 
I tracked down that amny.com article: Port Authority reveals possible alternatives to LaGuardia AirTrain | amNewYork

Port Authority reveals possible alternatives to LaGuardia AirTrain | amNewYork
It's a big list.
  1. Bus: improved Q70 - Subway 7 Jackson Hts, Woodside Ave - BQE East
  2. Bus: improved M60 - 125th St. RFK Astoria Blvd.
  3. Bus: Subway NW Astoria Blvd. - Astoria Blvd.
  4. Bus: Subway NW Astoria-Ditmars - 31th St. 19th Ave.
  5. Bus: Subway R Northern Blvd. - Northern Blvd. 96th St.
  6. Light rail: Subway 7 Woodside Ave. - 55th Ave. BQE East
  7. Light rail: Subway 7 LIRR Mets Willetts Point
  8. Light rail: Subway LIRR Jamaica Station
  9. Light rail: Subway NW Astoria Blvd. - Astoria Blvd.
  10. Light rail: Subway 7 Jackson Hts - BQE East
  11. Subway extension: Subway NW 30th St. - Astoria Blvd
  12. Subway extension: Subway NW Astoria-Ditmars - 31th St. 19th Ave.
  13. Ferry service: Bowery Bay (W of LGA) or Flushing Bay (E of LGA) - Manhattan E 90 St. E 34th St. Pier 11
  14. "Other Options / Emerging Technologies"
A light-rail system would be grade separated for all its length, and mostly elevated with a below-grade section near LGA.

Under "Other Options / Emerging Technologies":
This study also includes an evaluation of innovative and emerging technologies that could be applicable, such as:
  • Narrow tunnels with electric vehicles
  • Fixed guideway with:
    • Group rapid transit (autonomous shuttles or buses)
    • Personal rapid transit (individual or small group pod systems)
"Narrow tunnels with electric vehicles" seems like Elon Musk's Tesla Tunnel in Las Vegas. "Personal rapid transit" seems like the Morgantown WV system - Morgantown Personal Rapid Transit - Wikipedia - though that is sometimes called "group rapid transit". Its vehicles have 8 seats and can hold 12 standees.
  by STrRedWolf
 
lpetrich wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:33 pm I tracked down that amny.com article: Port Authority reveals possible alternatives to LaGuardia AirTrain | amNewYork
  1. Bus: improved Q70 - Subway 7 Jackson Hts, Woodside Ave - BQE East
  2. Bus: improved M60 - 125th St. RFK Astoria Blvd.
  3. Bus: Subway NW Astoria Blvd. - Astoria Blvd.
  4. Bus: Subway NW Astoria-Ditmars - 31th St. 19th Ave.
  5. Bus: Subway R Northern Blvd. - Northern Blvd. 96th St.
  6. Light rail: Subway 7 Woodside Ave. - 55th Ave. BQE East
  7. Light rail: Subway 7 LIRR Mets Willetts Point
  8. Light rail: Subway LIRR Jamaica Station
  9. Light rail: Subway NW Astoria Blvd. - Astoria Blvd.
  10. Light rail: Subway 7 Jackson Hts - BQE East
  11. Subway extension: Subway NW 30th St. - Astoria Blvd
  12. Subway extension: Subway NW Astoria-Ditmars - 31th St. 19th Ave.
  13. Ferry service: Bowery Bay (W of LGA) or Flushing Bay (E of LGA) - Manhattan E 90 St. E 34th St. Pier 11
  14. "Other Options / Emerging Technologies"
A light-rail system would be grade separated for all its length, and mostly elevated with a below-grade section near LGA.

Under "Other Options / Emerging Technologies":
This study also includes an evaluation of innovative and emerging technologies that could be applicable, such as:
  • Narrow tunnels with electric vehicles
  • Fixed guideway with:
    • Group rapid transit (autonomous shuttles or buses)
    • Personal rapid transit (individual or small group pod systems)
"Narrow tunnels with electric vehicles" seems like Elon Musk's Tesla Tunnel in Las Vegas. "Personal rapid transit" seems like the Morgantown WV system - Morgantown Personal Rapid Transit - Wikipedia - though that is sometimes called "group rapid transit". Its vehicles have 8 seats and can hold 12 standees.
Okay, outsider looking in...

1-5 are no-gos due to traffic.
6-12 are variations of an extension or new subway line I mused with earlier.
13 is interesting, but I'd add more ferries from the Bronx, and add connecting bus service to the subway lines. It's a good addition to 6-12, though.
14... um... "gadgetbahn" crap.
  by Jeff Smith
 
They should have just extended the LIRR directly to JFK on the guideway using M-3's.

Subways won't work, unless the reinstitute the Train to the Plane, which also won't work.

Instead of Willets Point, why not an Airtrain from Woodside along the BQE? That's much shorter.
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