Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:36 am Lest we forget, they are doing this job in their "spare time", with no federal funding. It's not in the budget.

NJT received $61m in federal funding thru former Congressman Frelinghuysen. NJT then put the Cutoff on the back burner while it focused on the new Portal Bridge and Hudson River tunnel.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:22 amBrightline is the wave of the future. I wish they’d take over Empire Service as well. Could you imagine them on the NEC, too?

After reviewing how Brightline got its funding, just who is willing in the Northeast to give them loans and/or bonds to operate any trains anywhere over the corridor(s) in question? And that’s assuming the economy improves at any time in the near future. No government agency in the Northeast is going to give up its grip on rail services; Florida is a far different state government-wise.

What agency? Brightline built its track on its own ROW. Am I even on an RR forum?

lensovet wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:02 pm What agency? Brightline built its track on its own ROW. Am I even on an RR forum?

Technically, Brightline started on the ROW of then sister company FEC. So, they were able to startup with track and signals built, from day 1.
There are two issues of "brightline just taking over the route" i can think of.
Iirc, brightline is non union. And those crews would have to qualify on Nj transit, and NEC, to get into NYC.
That said, long term, the Nepa region will be desirable, as climate change makes florida real estate go underwater (literally, and marketwise). So, Someone operating with the model of, "if we build it, they will come (to get where it's not flooded, or fatal wet bulb conditions like what kills hundreds in india, every year)" and can wait on the properties not filling immediately, it would be eventually profitable.
I could also see that being used for philly to reading area service.

Brightline is building piles of track as it heads to Orlando and beyond, and they do it quickly, including bridges and stations.

lensovet wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:02 pm What agency? Brightline built its track on its own ROW. Am I even on an RR forum?

The track is owned by the Florida East Coast Railway. Brightline had to get billions in bond funds to even get started. Now which state in the Northeast would be willing to surrender rights of way under government ownership to this company, and allow them to obtain funds in the way Florida did, to permit them to run at speeds that Amtrak would not even run at on the corridors mentioned herein?

The point is that what's left of NJT, after Christie emasculated it, is no longer capable of getting anything done, including running its existing service, while Brightline seems to be very efficient at rebuilding old lines, building new, and moving things forward.

amtrakowitz wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:42 pm

lensovet wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:02 pm What agency? Brightline built its track on its own ROW. Am I even on an RR forum?

The track is owned by the Florida East Coast Railway. Brightline had to get billions in bond funds to even get started. Now which state in the Northeast would be willing to surrender rights of way under government ownership to this company, and allow them to obtain funds in the way Florida did, to permit them to run at speeds that Amtrak would not even run at on the corridors mentioned herein?

At the time Brightline was conceived and built, it was owned by the same investment management company as FEC. There is simply no comparison.

Their ROW is also pretty much flat and runs through territory that doesn't have any protected species or dilapidated century-old tunnels and viaducts that need repair.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:22 am Brightline is the wave of the future. I wish they'd take over Empire Service as well. Could you imagine them on the NEC, too?

I don't think so, I would dread any private company running the NEC or any major passenger railroad in the Northeast. Brightline is better off keeping to small RRs.

photobug56 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:22 pm Brightline is building piles of track as it heads to Orlando and beyond, and they do it quickly, including bridges and stations.

I'm sure if you gave NJT over $4B in bonds that they wouldn't be on the hook for repaying they would happily build many lines and stations.

Btw, Brightline promised 240k monthly riders in their bond sale. They broke 100k for the first time after over 4 years in operation, which is still less than half of what they promised. Imagine what would happen if NJT did the same after taking over 4 billion in "taxpayer money"?

Just because they had success in Florida doesn't mean it can repeat itself up in the Northeast. Different environment.

sextant wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:28 pm What’s in Scranton anyway? Last I saw there was half empty shopping mall downtown and when I went to the courthouse to contest a traffic ticket some pretty rough looking criminals and cops…. By the time I was done at night I needed a Vet Friend with a conceal carry permit just to go get pizza and a beer and escort me back to my car

I believe the concept of bringing back rail service to Scranton (and the surrounding area), it will also bring people, industry, etc. to the area as well. A "build it and they will come" concept. Probably a very flawed concept, but people are desperate to revitalize the area.

photobug56 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:50 pm If you are talking about the Justice of the Peace office across from the courthouse, I spent 2 summers working there. As to the merits of restoring commuter and passenger rail service to Scranton, it would be a big boost to Scranton, the Poconos, Stroudsburg, western NJ, and various schools and resorts and other tourist attractions including skiing, and as commuting gradually comes back, make it easier to commute. Plus it can get a lot of cars off of I80 and I380.

IIRC it's been more than well established that a train from (near) Scranton to NYC would be considerably longer than just driving. Sure, there could be some tourism, but I don't know if Scranton is a very walkable area. When people take a train to an area, said area must be also walkable enough to justify not bringing a car there. And I don't think anyone is going to rent a car just to hang out in Scranton at this time.

photobug56 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:08 pm Give Brightline a right of way, few grade crossings, some challenges, and they'd be done all the way to Scranton in a couple years.

Brightline is a private company, I don't think they would be interested in this line unless the government agreed to heavily subsidize it - there's no way that they would be able to make a profit off of the line, unless the line was 100+ MPH trackage rating (expensive, especially in the Northeast) and Brightline could buy and build tons of real estate/apartments/shopping centers along the ROW, which is why they are successful in Florida.

amtrakowitz wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:55 pm After reviewing how Brightline got its funding, just who is willing in the Northeast to give them loans and/or bonds to operate any trains anywhere over the corridor(s) in question? And that’s assuming the economy improves at any time in the near future. No government agency in the Northeast is going to give up its grip on rail services; Florida is a far different state government-wise.

Agreed. Brightline filled in a demand in Florida that needed to be filled, when there were few alternatives/options. The NEC and Empire Corridor are already there, do decent enough, and the state for sure won't give up control of those.

lensovet wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:02 pm What agency? Brightline built its track on its own ROW. Am I even on an RR forum?

I am wondering the same especially after that comment about politics earlier in the thread.

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:57 pm There are two issues of "brightline just taking over the route" i can think of.
Iirc, brightline is non union. And those crews would have to qualify on Nj transit, and NEC, to get into NYC.
That said, long term, the Nepa region will be desirable, as climate change makes florida real estate go underwater (literally, and marketwise). So, Someone operating with the model of, "if we build it, they will come (to get where it's not flooded, or fatal wet bulb conditions like what kills hundreds in india, every year)" and can wait on the properties not filling immediately, it would be eventually profitable.
I could also see that being used for philly to reading area service.

It will most likely be a long time, probably at least a century or two, before much of South Florida is consistently underwater. It's already underwater for a decent chunk of the year due to hurricane season, and that didn't stop Brightline almost a decade ago now.

If we have to concentrate on developing NEPA due to climate change wrecking havoc on the coastal Northeast, I think rail service will probably be one of the last considerations for that continuity plan.

photobug56 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:46 pm The point is that what's left of NJT, after Christie emasculated it, is no longer capable of getting anything done, including running its existing service, while Brightline seems to be very efficient at rebuilding old lines, building new, and moving things forward.

Again with the politics. Christie has been gone for quite some time now, if Governor Murphy hasn't been able to significantly turn NJT around by now, the issue with NJT most likely goes deeper than Christie

Frank wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:20 pm I don't think so, I would dread any private company running the NEC or any major passenger railroad in the Northeast. Brightline is better off keeping to small RRs.

Brightline's operation in Florida, which will run from Miami to Orlando in less than a year, and then to Tampa by probably the end of the decade, is not a "small RR." That is considerable distance, and they will most likely be pulling numbers on par with most Northeastern routes, if not more. Why do you dread "any private company running the NEC or any major passenger railroad in the Northeast"?

lensovet wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:22 pm Btw, Brightline promised 240k monthly riders in their bond sale. They broke 100k for the first time after over 4 years in operation, which is still less than half of what they promised. Imagine what would happen if NJT did the same after taking over 4 billion in "taxpayer money"?

I don't think criticizing Brightline for not meeting their projected demand is fair. In that four years, there was a pretty significant event (COVID) that shut down their operations, and as they opened back up, the public has been nervous to take public transportation due to health concerns.

As for giving NJT money, NJT's yearly allocation for funding will be just over $2.5B next year - no matter where "taxpayer money" goes to, people will complain about it.

lensovet wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:17 pm Their ROW is also pretty much flat and runs through territory that doesn't have any protected species or dilapidated century-old tunnels and viaducts that need repair.

Excellent point. Brightline had little to no legacy infrastructure to deal with, all of their infrastructure is brand-spanking new modern technology, making the process much easier. It's similar to how Europe and Japan have built some impressive rail infrastructure, after WW2 they pretty much had to start over from scratch, which allowed them a lot of freedoms with planning and construction.

Frank wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:20 pm Just because they had success in Florida doesn't mean it can repeat itself up in the Northeast. Different environment.

Agreed. It's a totally different ball game up here vs. down in Florida, I lived down there for a year or so for school before COVID hit and I moved back up.

johnfromjersey wrote:Brightline had little to no legacy infrastructure to deal with, all of their infrastructure is brand-spanking new modern technology, making the process much easier.

Eh? The Brightline corridor was built on a lot of the FEC legacy rails. Please see here:

(O)fficials said Tuesday a plan to create a quiet zone to silence the horns of both Brightline’s trains and other freight traffic along the Florida East Coast Railway is still on track. …

The company’s trains will run on Henry Flagler’s historic rail corridor, passing through the heart of many of South Florida’s coastal cities. …

Much of the line joining to Orlando and Tampa of course will be new.

johnfromjersey wrote: It’s similar to how Europe and Japan have built some impressive rail infrastructure, after WW2 they pretty much had to start over from scratch, which allowed them a lot of freedoms with planning and construction.

That is not how things worked. In Europe they had the Marshall Plan, with which they had US cash aplenty to play with trains such as the gas-turbine TGV 001 and develop that into the all-electric TGV Sud-Est; and Japan got US cash from the World Bank in order to build their first standard-gauge main lines starting with the Shinkansen 0 and the bullet trains on those.

amtrakowitz wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:46 am Eh? The Brightline corridor was built on a lot of the FEC legacy rails.

Brightline's rails are built alongside the FEC legacy rails. And the FEC legacy ROW has a lot less legacy infrastructure to deal with like multiple ancient viaducts and bridges and elevated lines and sharp turns that the NEC sees, the FEC ROW is pretty much entirely straight and at ground level. Florida is flat, most of the Northeast is anything but.

amtrakowitz wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:46 am That is not how things worked. In Europe they had the Marshall Plan, with which they had US cash aplenty to play with trains such as the gas-turbine TGV 001 and develop that into the all-electric TGV Sud-Est; and Japan got US cash from the World Bank in order to build their first standard-gauge main lines starting with the Shinkansen 0 and the bullet trains on those.

European nations and Japan would not have gotten all that money to rebuild their infrastructure from us, if it weren't for us bombing the living hell out of their railroads (and pretty much everything else) during the Second World War.

But yes, quite a lot of those fancy trains in Europe and Japan were financed by American money, meanwhile, all we have here is the Acela and Brightline.

JohnFromJersey wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:15 pm Brightline's rails are built alongside the FEC legacy rails.

Mr. John from Jersey, you do raise an interesting point.

Will Brightline essentially be confined to the additional track being built W Palm to Cocoa Rockledge and FEC to the existing, or will operations of both roads be "intermingled" allowing both tracks available for either class of traffic?

There is a situation with the Utah passenger service. Between Salt Lake City and Ogden UTA paid (surely Federal and State funding in the mix as well) for an additional track to be laid alongside the existing UP double track. UP must stay off the UTA track, but UTA can use the UP in an emergency.