Railroad Forums 

  • Is the Commuter Rail "Inequitable"?

  • Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.
Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

Moderators: sery2831, CRail

 #1591584  by GaryGP40
 
Another caveat in the whole aspect of the N-S tunnel (and this has been talked about for many, many, many years) is that you'd need to replace the diesels with electric trains in the "tunnel" (apologies if that was mentioned already). And having stops in the tunnel would mean more fumes. It's like old steam engines blowing smoke into the cab so the engineer can't see, so SP and others developed the cab forward locomotive. It might make more sense to have an underground N-S shuttle train. And since only one line is electrified south and none north, you can't really have an electric train run as a regular commuter service between north and south. The costs would be really high to electrify the whole north side. I am sure the top dogs don't care as long as the cut lines their pockets and those that contribute to them, where the working stiffs and people in the "salt mines" who see this as not being feasible given the current infrastructure and told "if you don't stop talking, we'll stop paying you..." and they go quiet.

Just 2 cents worth, I've thought a lot about the tunnel idea for a long time. From a rail fan standpoint, I love to see growth and expansion (and use) of train services. From a taxpayers standpoint, I just can't see the overall justification given what we have in place now.

Make the current services (Covid aside) more accessible (double track the WRML, increase the frequency of trains in more remote areas to make taking the train from say Gloucester, Lowell or even Southern NH to Boston for those daily commuters, it adds revenue once people realize that it adds a lot of fuel to updating infrastructure versus building a tunnel (and most all of us know the term 'Big Dig' and what a "bargain" that was supposed to be...)
 #1591587  by octr202
 
Pre-COVID, keep in mind that the whole system was straining to the point of collapse most days. The subway's downtown core was overloaded and many stations couldn't keep up with the volume of transfer traffic in the corridors and stairways. Some incremental improvement is possible (new RL and OL fleets, RL signal upgrades) but they won't do much to move the needle. Similarly, the commuter rail was struggling to keep up using it's low-frequency model into surface stub terminals. All this was occurring while we dealt with some of the worst traffic congestion in the nation, so clearly the highway system wasn't doing much better. In short, each day, the whole metro area's transportation system was groaning at about 115% of capacity.

If you aggressively expand the service on the existing commuter rail lines, without doing anything to the downtown core, you will get some growth in usage, but it will not be as substantial if the system is connected and riders have both multiple downtown access options as well as through routing options. And...if those regional rail service improvements do create more ridership (they will - the more regular, all day commuter rail service is already showing positive results despite the pandemic), in a post-pandemic world those downtown terminals will quickly be overwhelmed.

I'm not saying the rail link won't be expensive, and I'm also not saying the T and MassDOT don't need to massively overhaul how they manage major capital projects (a problem across the US, we're not alone). But we're setting the whole effort up for failure if we don't plan for the region's growth. Traffic volumes are already back to or above pre-pandemic levels, so we're certainly ready to strangle ourselves in that sense.
 #1591598  by mbrproductions
 
The Commuter Rail doesn't serve downtown locations other than the two termini because it simply isn't designed to do that, that's what Subways are for. The Commuter Rail, at its core, is to transport people to and from the suburbs of Boston. I understand that the subways are overcrowded but that is something that we need to improve them to solve, not drag an unrelated system into it that was never designed to handle such trips in the first place.
in a post-pandemic world those downtown terminals will quickly be overwhelmed.

This is the reason that terminal expansion is desired, to avoid this looming issue, it would be cheaper than NSRL initially and maintenance-wise while being more appropriate for the type of service the Commuter Rail was designed for.
all day commuter rail service is already showing positive results despite the pandemic
Great, that shows it is a success! expand the terminals, double track mostly single tracked lines and watch as ridership increases in a (hopefully near) post-pandemic world, and takes more cars off the road, all while costing far less than "Big Dig: The Second Coming".
 #1591614  by Red Wing
 
If you connect North and South Station or in other words 2 major employment areas of Boston you take all of the people that would ride the subway between both stations and if you add the center station even more people wouldn't ride the subway. This would increase efficiency of the subway. Also if trains stop and continue through your end stations there is no need to increase the congestion and track capacity of the terminals. In 1900 was it technically possible to tunnel between North and South Station probably not at this scale but now it i. Also upwards of 6 different railroads were terminating in Boston Now it's 2 and Amtrak isn't going to stand in the way of the T on this. One of the problems is people have to stop thinking that everything is separate. All modes of transportation compliments other modes. Efficiencies in one assists the others. What's the cost of the rail link compared to the cost of subway improvements and expanding the termini?

edited for spelling and to fix quoting.
 #1591627  by BandA
 
Red Wing wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:17 pm...What's the cost of the rail link compared to the cost of subway improvements and expanding the termini?...
Subway tunnels and expanding the terminals would probably be significantly cheaper than N-S rail link. And more equitable.
 #1591773  by Red Wing
 
I forgot to add the potential increase in users on the whole system because there are less transfers, less (potential) delays and less packed equipment. I still don't think many people here are taking into account the holistic benefits to transportation in general, they are only looking at one piece of the money pie and not the whole thing. Back to the equity question sure sounds equitable for someone in Chelsea to get to their job somewhere in Boston a heck of a lot faster than taking the 111 and transferring at Haymarket.
 #1591775  by scratchyX1
 
You mean, integrated transportation systems, like they do in europe?
Last edited by CRail on Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total. Reason: Unnecessary quote removed. Do not use the "Quote" button as a "Reply" button.
 #1591813  by Arborwayfan
 
What the CR system was originally designed for is not a reason to run it in a particular way today. There may be good reasons to keep it as a limited-stop service from the suburbs and regional cities to Boston, but historical origins isn't one of them.

And, anyway, the railroad network around Boston was originally built with very frequent stations, like the Needham line and the Riverside D line. So, if we dig back far enough, there was very local service on those lines, not just the semi-expresses that run on most CR lines today (semi-express in the sense of fewer stops than originally on those lines and in the sense of fewer stops than a similar length of subway.

Or if we choose the 60s-70s, when the T started subsidizing and then running the CR system, we're looking at kind of stopgap way to save old-style commuter service to various small-town suburbs that have since grown enormously in population while the type and location of employers in eastern Mass has changed a lot. So that historical origin is not a great reason to run the system in a particular way today.
 #1591814  by Arborwayfan
 
The T should do an easy experiment in cross-metro-area CR service: Run some trains from one or other of the Old Colony lines through to Framingham or Worcester. Probably change ends as quickly as possible in South Station, possibly have having a new engineer at the outer end of the platform ready to take over as some subway systems to. But could try some trips that skip S Station and just curve over to Back Bay if the tracks allow it. Put in fare rules that allow easy, one-ticket rides between any two stations on the route. And see what happens. Maybe a bunch of people in Quincy want to go to Newton and vice versa. Very little if any capital investment needed to try out a variant on CR and see if people might actually use it for something other than classic in and out.

Same pilot could involved pointing out/tweaking schedules to facilitate easy transfers at BBY from inbound on one line to outbound on another. One never knowns.

Distantly related: Shouldn't the T consider charging lower fares in the off-peak direction during rush hours? All those empty seats going back out the lines for their second inbound rush trip could maybe make a little more money and more a few more people around.
 #1591830  by Trinnau
 
Old Colony to Worcester or the NEC while skipping South Station is possible as a continuous move, there is a wye track connecting them. While you are right there is very little capital cost to try it, the rub has always been upsetting the existing passengers. In order to advance different scheduling practices you have to discard existing ones - and the people who use those existing schedules don't like that and tend to get very vocal. I've heard that as people have started to trickle back into offices in the city they aren't too happy with the new schedules, which reduce rush hour options compared to what they were pre-COVID in favor of more balanced service all day in a regional rail-type format. Can't have change without upsetting some of the existing condition.

To your last, MBTA tried that with the Foxboro service staring in the Fall of 2019, but COVID put a wrench in the plan to see how it was working.
 #1591853  by mbrproductions
 
What the CR system was originally designed for is not a reason to run it in a particular way today. There may be good reasons to keep it as a limited-stop service from the suburbs and regional cities to Boston, but historical origins isn't one of them.
Your answer was well put, however, I never stated that the Commuter Rail should stay as a limited stop service because of historical operations, in fact i never even referenced historical operations, what I meant to get across was that we should put the burden of connecting Boston's downtown on the system that was designed specifically for those kinds of operations and would easily do it better anyway, the Subways. If there is a massive rail project under the city in the future with the intention of connecting downtown Boston better than before, I have no doubt that it should be a rapid transit project
And, anyway, the railroad network around Boston was originally built with very frequent stations, like the Needham line and the Riverside D line. So, if we dig back far enough, there was very local service on those lines, not just the semi-expresses that run on most CR lines today (semi-express in the sense of fewer stops than originally on those lines and in the sense of fewer stops than a similar length of subway.
I am aware of this, but times have changed, having very frequent station stops on Commuter Rail lines is no longer needed thanks to the advent of the park-and-ride station, which enables people to drive across town to the closest station and board the train there, because of this, all Commuter trains can run "semi-express" without there being a problem of leaving behind potential passengers. And of course, the Riverside Branch has been converted to Light Rail and the Needham Line is probably going to be converted to Rapid Transit, and even if it isn't it can still provide adequate service since it is such a short line
 #1591857  by Bolo42
 
The Foxboro demo seems to have been poorly designed. Instead of tacking it onto the end of existing route, it would probably be more effective to run it as an express service.
 #1591881  by BandA
 
Trinnau wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:43 pm Old Colony to Worcester or the NEC while skipping South Station is possible as a continuous move, there is a wye track connecting them. While you are right there is very little capital cost to try it...
Worcester to Old Colony "cape main?", you would be crossing all of the tracks, so all NEC moves would have to pause for a few minutes. Basically shut down anything else coming or going from South Station.

What would be lovely would be if they would reserve Track 1 & 2, maybe 3, for Framingham-Worcester trains only, just run in and out all day, not crossing over any NEC tracks. Then use the remaining tracks at Beacon Park for layover (instead of giving them up for the Mass Pike reconstruction).