Highest Speed

Sorry for arriving at the party a little late, it's good to see the Japanese get the spotlight for a little while. For those who would like more info. about the Japanese high-speed network, here's a site with lots of good info.

http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~dajf/byunbyun/


I haven't ridden on all the lines, and predominantly rode the Akita "Komachi" (hmm, that name is familiar...) from Akita City to Tokyo. The Akita trains, like the Nagano and Yamagata trains actually run over standard lines (Japan's standard guage is 3'6") that have been broadened for the shinkansen trains (shinkansen operate on 4'8.5").* The Akita train runs at a restricted 83 m/ph (or thereabouts) on the converted segments between Akita City and Morioka, then run at regular speed on the run from Morioka to Tokyo. Also, the Akita train is coupled to the Nagano train for that segment of the line to become a full 16-car Tohoku shinkansen set.

Just for another time measurement, the Komachi "super express" (one train a day that ran on a limited stop schedule) would make the run from Akita City to Tokyo in 3hrs 40min.

Timz,

You asked about the trains running though stations at full tilt. They do on the Tohoku shinkansen line. From what I recall, the Tohoku shinkansen line has the two main lines with two side tracks for slower trainsets serving the rapid and local trains. I couldn't tell if there was any reduction in speed approaching the stations we didn't stop at, but we pretty much went through stations at top speed.

That's not to say that the passengers standing on the platforms were caught unaware, as Orulz pointed out, when the timetable says the train arrives at time X and departs at time Y... it arrives at time X and departs at time Y. Also, there are automated announcements that play over the PA system that tells passengers which track the train will be arriving at and that they should stand back from the edge of the platform.


* I realize Orulz gave the metric measurements for the differences in the track guage, but I thought I'd give the English (Imperial) measurements.

quoting: "and grades are up to 0.4% which doesn't sound much but try rolling up that grade at 300kph! These are powerful MU's. It takes 7.5km (almost 5 miles) to stop at that speed."

You're right, 0.4% doesn't sound like much. Isn't the French LGV 3.5% maximum?
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Sorry, I meant 4% (that's 40 pro-mille in German, as it says on the web page I mentioned). So it's comprable to the LGV. And when you ride it there are definitely some ups and downs, which seem like several percent.

And I agree the 7.5km is not an emergency stop! I couldn't find a reference to that, but 3.2km (2 miles) sounds about right. These are indeed heavy trains.

Hello!
Quite long time ago since the last post but I think I have annother contribution.

4% is quite a grade, especially for freight trains!!! Yes, freight trains. I am not in the wrong thread. Due to reasons of a federal financing law all federal railroad tracks must be capable both passenger and freight trains. Frankfurt - Cologne and all other high speed tracks are federal tracks. So, during daylight these tracks are the ICE's sandboxes. When the night falls, the freight trains take over the routes. OK, most of them are run with extra freight cars that allow top speeds of 100 mph, anyway, they are freight trains.
If there hadn't been this condition (to mix pass and freight trains on one route) much higher grades would have been possible and much less tunnels and bridges would have had to be built.
Our politicians just want to have all providing genetically enginerred animals that do not cost a cent! (Do brigdes and tunnels cost nothing?...)

Horst

sodusbay wrote:Now that we're back in sub-300kph range, I nominate the ICE3 of the Deutsche Bahn on the Neubaustrecke (new construction) from Frankfurt Flughafen (airport) to Siegburg (across the river from Bonn). This is scheduled for 37 minutes, which includes a few km of "old" track and connection to the new section, and 57 minutes nonstop (skipping Siegburg and a few other stations) all the way to Cologne main station, including slow running in suburban Cologne and across the world's busiest railroad bridge (the Hohenzollern bridge, crossing the Rhine). This cut more than an hour off the old route via the Rhine valley.

If you can read German here's a nice site with good maps and facts:

http://www.hochgeschwindigkeitszuege.co ... recken.htm

There are 30 tunnels (longest 4.5km), 18 bridges. Total length is 177km from Frankfurt to the end of the new construction near Bonn; all the way to Cologne is 219km; I can't seem to find the exact km to which the 37 min. refers; my guess is about 160km which makes for a 260kph average. But even for the whole length, including the slow running at either end, that's 230kph average!

The top speed is 300kph and I have been on this train several times -- what an experience! They show the speedometer on the bulkhead of each car (like something the Pennsy or NYC would have done years ago) and it's usually pinned on 300. This is rolling country in Hesse state, along the A3, and grades are up to 0.4% which doesn't sound much but try rolling up that grade at 300kph! These are powerful MU's. It takes 7.5km (almost 5 miles) to stop at that speed.

The only fly in the ointment are the local politicians (as usual) -- but this time it's not NIMBY -- it's "please stop in my back yard". Two essentially local stations (Limburg and Montalbur) had to be built and served as "ranson" by the local authorities to stop them blocking everything with interminable court actions. Well, I think this happened in railroad history in the USA too.

So... come to Germany and fly along the ground at 300kph every day... then take the scenic route along the Lorelei on the return trip to Cologne.

That seems an impressive speed but in Germany the competitor is the Autobahn...

Only on short distances the ICE has average speeds over 110 - 120mph.

On longer distances the ICE stops too frequently - non-stop-services like Paris - Marseille or Paris - Bordeaux in the french TGV-Network are regrettably limited on a few Berlin to Cologne an Berlin to Francfort destinations...

I travel weekly from Bremen to Ludwigshafen (near Mannheim), thats about 550km (~343 miles) from appartment to appartment

By car on the Autobahn in need between 3hrs30mins and 4hrs for the whole trip (on friday 4hrs30mins ). Average speed about 80 - 95mph....

The ICE needs 4hrs19min from Bremen Central Station to Mannheim Central Station. But I need an extra hour to go from my appartment to the station and from the station in Mannheim to my appartment in Ludwigshafen by Taxi or Regional/Light Train.


That means the whole trip by train is minimum 5hrs30min and maximum over 6hrs...

Average speed about 50 - 65mph...

To fly Bremen - Francfort and go by train Francfort Airport - Ludwigshafen needs also more than 4 hrs from appartment to appartment.

Mostly I choice the Autobahn....

Technically an ICE can made Bremen - Mannheim in less than 3 hrs. If he doesnt stop at any town and uses Francfort South Station in place of Francfort Central Station.

The TGV has the better system - the ICE3 ist the better rolling stock, but the TGV-HSR-Network is better.

Horst wrote:Hello!
Quite long time ago since the last post but I think I have annother contribution.

4% is quite a grade, especially for freight trains!!! Yes, freight trains. I am not in the wrong thread. Due to reasons of a federal financing law all federal railroad tracks must be capable both passenger and freight trains. Frankfurt - Cologne and all other high speed tracks are federal tracks. So, during daylight these tracks are the ICE's sandboxes. When the night falls, the freight trains take over the routes. OK, most of them are run with extra freight cars that allow top speeds of 100 mph, anyway, they are freight trains.
If there hadn't been this condition (to mix pass and freight trains on one route) much higher grades would have been possible and much less tunnels and bridges would have had to be built.
Our politicians just want to have all providing genetically enginerred animals that do not cost a cent! (Do brigdes and tunnels cost nothing?...)

Horst

Thats not right: On the Cologne-Francfort-HSR-Track Freight Train as any loco-hauled trains and the older ICE (ICE-1 and ICE-2) are prohibited.

Only on the older HSR-Lines Hannover - Würzburg, Mannheim - Stuttgart and Hannover - Berlin are loco-hauled trains and freight trains permitted.

They have only grades up to 1,2%.

The Cologne-Francfort-Luine has grades up to 4,5% - and more an not a good idea if you wouldnt built a very big Roller coaster

jtr1962 wrote:I mentioned this several times on another (not rail related) forum several years ago and nobody believed me until I did the numbers. State-of-the-art 220 mph high speed rail can average 180+ mph over long distances. This makes it quite competitive with planes in total journey time up to at least 1000 miles. I once figured that if we could get enough high speed routes built so that it would be possible to travel cross country entirely on high-speed tracks, we could do NYC to LA in perhaps 15 hours. A cross country flight takes 6 hours. Once you count the security checks and trips to/from the airports you're probably pushing 9 hours, certainly 8. The difference between the plane and train is essentially a good night's sleep, and I'm sure such a route would easily get 50% or better of the trips. People will trade time for comfort and convenience if the time penalty isn't too great.

Based on what I just said, we're looking at a 6 or 7 hour time penalty for the longest possible domestic trips, and likely no time penalty at all on many of the typical ones. Am I the only one here thinking that nationwide 220 mph rail would probably just about make domestic air travel (and most long distance auto travel) obsolete? Think about it. 90% of flights simply would be done by train. And there would no longer be the range excuse preventing auto makers from manufacturing battery electric vehicles (BEVs). If almost nobody drives more than 200 miles round trip then the whole range and recharge time excuse goes right out the window since current technology can make BEVs with 200 mile range (and incidentally 80% recharge in 15 minutes).

Of course, the idiots in Washington will continue to say people will never leave their cars to ride a train, even a fast one, yet that is exactly what they do when they fly. Now if the train is as fast or faster than the plane door-to-door (and advertised as such) why wouldn't the public ride the rails?

Quite possibly, even with about an 87 mph average of a 150 mph (bio-diesel turbine powered?) maximum speed--rendering about 36 hours time from coast-to-coast--many would forget the plane and take the train!

jtr1962 wrote:I mentioned this several times on another (not rail related) forum several years ago and nobody believed me until I did the numbers. State-of-the-art 220 mph high speed rail can average 180+ mph over long distances. This makes it quite competitive with planes in total journey time up to at least 1000 miles. I once figured that if we could get enough high speed routes built so that it would be possible to travel cross country entirely on high-speed tracks, we could do NYC to LA in perhaps 15 hours. A cross country flight takes 6 hours. Once you count the security checks and trips to/from the airports you're probably pushing 9 hours, certainly 8. The difference between the plane and train is essentially a good night's sleep, and I'm sure such a route would easily get 50% or better of the trips. People will trade time for comfort and convenience if the time penalty isn't too great.

Based on what I just said, we're looking at a 6 or 7 hour time penalty for the longest possible domestic trips, and likely no time penalty at all on many of the typical ones. Am I the only one here thinking that nationwide 220 mph rail would probably just about make domestic air travel (and most long distance auto travel) obsolete? Think about it. 90% of flights simply would be done by train. And there would no longer be the range excuse preventing auto makers from manufacturing battery electric vehicles (BEVs). If almost nobody drives more than 200 miles round trip then the whole range and recharge time excuse goes right out the window since current technology can make BEVs with 200 mile range (and incidentally 80% recharge in 15 minutes).

Of course, the idiots in Washington will continue to say people will never leave their cars to ride a train, even a fast one, yet that is exactly what they do when they fly. Now if the train is as fast or faster than the plane door-to-door (and advertised as such) why wouldn't the public ride the rails?

Quite possibly, even with about an 87 mph average of a 150 mph (bio-diesel turbine powered?) maximum speed--rendering about 36 hours time from coast-to-coast--many would forget the plane and take the train!