Hicksville Station - New Signals

New pedestal position-light signals have just replaced the old ones at the east end of Hicksville Station on the middle and south tracks. (Station tracks 2 & 3) They are box-shaped housings like some new ones in the Jamaica vicinity and identical to ones being used in Philadelphia on SEPTA.

They have silver-white LED's that are very visible even during the day. What's puzzling is that on the south track the new signal instead of being mounted on the same extended platform as the old, is mounted on a new structure that was built on to the viaduct maybe 20 feet west of the old one. Don't know why they needed to move that signal further back and it must have been expensive to build that additional structure.

Signals are never moved without good cause, Head. I'm not familiar with this project, but I suspect the removal was either to accommodate a new change in track geometry, the installation or relocation of a switch or a change in a track circuit mandated by the speed control system. Watch what happens here, and I can assure you the answer to this mystery will unfold.

Kelly&Kelly wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2024 1:10 pm Signals are never moved without good cause, Head. I'm not familiar with this project, but I suspect the removal was either to accommodate a new change in track geometry, the installation or relocation of a switch or a change in a track circuit mandated by the speed control system. Watch what happens here, and I can assure you the answer to this mystery will unfold.

Thanks K & K. I assumed there must be a valid reason behind the move; sorry if I implied otherwise. I looked at the track switches east of the station from the platform, and nothing looks different than before, but maybe changes in switches or track layout are yet to come. .............There were already changes in the signal aspects there related to speed control even on the old full-sized signal. Eastbound's on the main-line used to get a clear on that signal but now only get an approach-medium (on the new signal too). I was told that is to enforce the reduced speed-limit thru the station.

A New Pedestal Signal has replaced the Position Light Signal at DIVIDE4-3E. This maybe a interim device as they convert to RAS's.

I think that might be a permanent signal. LIRR does not seem to be converting to RAS's in Divide Interlocking. Eastbound at Divide-1 there is a very new signal bridge with conventional position-light signals. I don't think they would have built that if they intended to go with RAS's in that area. The only exception I've seen is westbound at Divide-1 is RAS's but that is seen by trains leaving the interlocking so speed aspects might not be needed as much.

I dont know if the impedance bonds were moved, but where the old signal was, it seems a train can stop at the signal, and foul the track circuit, triggering a false stop-signal alarm.

The changing Signals at QUEENS3

Ya' have to wonder how the MTA expects the engineers to even see those little dwarf RAS signals at track speed........

Even dopey SEPTA in Philadelphia (where they have gone to similar proceed-cab type signals) uses full size signal heads on traditional high masts with a flashing-green-over-red aspect for proceed cab. Probably it was just cheaper to do it that way using the existing hardware.

The pedestal type signals shouldn’t be used in applications where track speed exceeds limited speed (45 MPH) I read this somewhere in a publication by the PRR.
However LIRR uses them in 80 MPH territory regularly (Valley) and the “justification” is “ you have cab signals so you don’t need to see the signal unless it’s displaying stop at which point you will have a restricting cab signal”

That said tue pedestal type signals in Divide 4 are proper application of that type of signal as track speed is not in excess of 40 mph depending on the route.

The reason for the relocation is they plan to adjust the alignment of switches to allow for moves out of 2 station to PJ Track 2 and 1 station to PJ Track 1 at the same time. The current configuration doesn’t permit a Parallel move to the Port Jeff Branch.

Straight moves west to east when complete.
ML 3 to PJ 1
ML 1 to either PJ 2 or ML 1
ML 2 to ML 2

I am not sure if they plan to keep the current option for ML 1 to 1 Station Hicksville or not. But ideally that would provide maximum flexibility.

As for Divide and RAS I don’t think that was in the budget. Maybe someone else has more statistics on that.

workextra wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:03 pm The pedestal type signals shouldn’t be used in applications where track speed exceeds limited speed (45 MPH) I read this somewhere in a publication by the PRR.
However LIRR uses them in 80 MPH territory regularly (Valley) and the “justification” is “ you have cab signals so you don’t need to see the signal unless it’s displaying stop at which point you will have a restricting cab signal”

That said tue pedestal type signals in Divide 4 are proper application of that type of signal as track speed is not in excess of 40 mph depending on the route.

The reason for the relocation is they plan to adjust the alignment of switches to allow for moves out of 2 station to PJ Track 2 and 1 station to PJ Track 1 at the same time. The current configuration doesn’t permit a Parallel move to the Port Jeff Branch.

Straight moves west to east when complete.
ML 3 to PJ 1
ML 1 to either PJ 2 or ML 1
ML 2 to ML 2

I am not sure if they plan to keep the current option for ML 1 to 1 Station Hicksville or not. But ideally that would provide maximum flexibility.

As for Divide and RAS I don’t think that was in the budget. Maybe someone else has more statistics on that.

Thanks very much, Workextra ! Appreciate all that detail.

workextra wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:03 pm The pedestal type signals shouldn’t be used in applications where track speed exceeds limited speed (45 MPH) I read this somewhere in a publication by the PRR.
However LIRR uses them in 80 MPH territory regularly (Valley) and the “justification” is “ you have cab signals so you don’t need to see the signal unless it’s displaying stop at which point you will have a restricting cab signal”

Seeing as the PRR has been out of the picture nearly 60 years, and Cab Signal was relatively new then, the reasoning for why they shouldn't be used (by PRR) and justification as to why they can be used (LIRR) do make sense.

The PRR-style position light signal governing eastbound movements on Track 3 at Hicksville was an old, old friend. Sorry to see it, and the others of the same type in the system replaced. Pretty clear & concise as to what the aspects conveyed, to the engineers and the commuters. Yes, the everyday commuters know what the signals mean.

Yes, I imagine the sharp-eyed regular commuters caught on that a medium-clear meant a Port Jeff. Branch train was next and a clear or nowadays an approach-medium indicates a main-line train approaching.

This may be irrelevant to this conversation, but the PRR didn't choose position light signals because they had extra low voltage light bulbs cluttering the office. Among the LIRR's document collection was the PRR's study regarding the visibility of different types of signals.

For over a century, the LIRR followed much of the PRR standards for good reason. The PRR was The standard railroad of the world, Long on the cutting edge of technology employing the brightest and best engineering asset in the nation.

After reading the documents I have no doubt that a position light signal is by far the easiest to identify, least likely to misread signal configuration available.

Anyone else remember the LIRR's venture into LED signals at KO? They were impossible to discern in direct sunlight. But they were cheap.

K&K, were those LED's at KO installed in the existing pos-light signals or were they color-light signals ? I'm surprised they would be hard to discern in direct sunlight being as LED's are used in traffic lights with no such problems that I've noticed.

And re: cost, I thought LED's were more expensive than other types of bulbs, but saved money in the long run by lasting longer.

Also, wasn't one factor involved in PRR's choice of yellow pos-light sig's that they were easier to see in foggy conditions than color-lights ?