Future of Septa Regional Rail Fleet

ExCon90 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:35 pm I was wondering about that; it's not strictly fail-safe. If the gauntlet is inadvertently aligned for the platform when the approaching train is a freight, the lunar white should be displayed, but if it fails and is dark the freight engineer is going to think he has the main and will plan to roll by at track speed; when he reaches the gauntlet and sees that it's misaligned for the platform there isn't much he can do. And if there isn't a corresponding lunar white on the distant and the route at the home signal is lined for the platform the engineer will still have no advance warning that he's going to see a lunar white at the home signal and will need to stop. The whole thing could have been made fail-safe (and still could be) by providing two illuminated arrows side by side, one pointing upward and the other to the left or right, at both the distant and home signals, as is done at Harold (MN) and Woodlawn (LI-Amtrak) so that the engineer is assured he's properly routed before reaching the point of no return. With a positive indication either way any failure will be evident, since both arrows will be dark and the engineer will be prepared to stop before reaching the critical point while the problem is resolved. Admittedly the situation first mentioned above would be very rare, but experience has shown that that's just the sort of thing you need to guard against.

The fail-safe way of doing this is to code these restrictions into PTC.

In European ETCS, there's a concept called "route suitability":
https://www.era.europa.eu/sites/default ... 3_v310.pdf
which is additional route-dependent data (e.g. loading gauge, electrification, max axle load) transmitted to the on-board controller (OBC). The OBC will prevent a train from entering any route it doesn't fit in.

LIRR plans to implement something similar to ETCS route suitability, as its new ESA tunnels will only fit M7 and M9 trains.
https://www.railwayage.com/wp-content/u ... ment_1.pdf

Since both LIRR and SEPTA use ACSES for PTC compliance, a transponder-based system similar to ETCS, SEPTA can take the same approach.

ekt8750 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:13 am

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:07 am Doesn't a dark signal immediately require stop and proceed at restricted speed?...

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Can't speak for other railroads but at least for us a dark signal is to be treated as the most restrictive aspect it can display (home signal = stop, distant signal = restricted).

It's stated above (on page 12 by Redfish, Oct. 9) that the lunar white is normally dark unless the switch is lined for the gauntlet. If a special aspect is normally dark there's no way of knowing when it's "abnormally" dark, as it would be in case of a failure, since the rest of the signal would be displaying the appropriate indication. Best to have some kind of positive indication either way.

The PTC overlays (yes Plural) would be able to take care of this pretty easily for either ACSES type D/E or I-ETMS equipment would get an automatic restricting if directed to the gauntlet track. No extra thinking, just a permeant speed restriction based on equipment configuration. The Passenger equipment coming in at ACSES type C would have no such restriction on the gauntlet track.

The issue with basing it on the equipment is that the restriction needs to be decoded into a near endless end of equipment which can come from any Class I freight railroad that are equipped with I-ETMS , not a captive fleet like LIRR's M3 & M7's which are ACSES. This dual overlay environment on the Conrail section of NJT is similar to Norristown on SEPTA, IIRC.

ExCon90 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:08 pmMy point was that if the lunar white light fails, the freight engineer won't be expecting to be routed to the gauntlet and won't be moving at restricted speed since he won't know about the misroute until he can actually see the switchpoints.

Yeah, that's where it gets weird, as the NJT gauntlet setup has the passenger on the gauntlet, not the freight, if a freight did track speed through, it would likely have some pretty nasty abrasions against the platform edge as cars rolled back and forth out of the Plate clearance. I don't think they actually go that fast through that section, so they might be above the limit, but probably not dangerously fast.

ElectricTraction wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:03 pm

ExCon90 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:08 pmMy point was that if the lunar white light fails, the freight engineer won't be expecting to be routed to the gauntlet and won't be moving at restricted speed since he won't know about the misroute until he can actually see the switchpoints.

Yeah, that's where it gets weird, as the NJT gauntlet setup has the passenger on the gauntlet, not the freight, if a freight did track speed through, it would likely have some pretty nasty abrasions against the platform edge as cars rolled back and forth out of the Plate clearance. I don't think they actually go that fast through that section, so they might be above the limit, but probably not dangerously fast.

That's normal,the NEC capital beltway station had gauntlet tracks for passenger trains.
https://www.railfanguides.us/md/capitolbeltway/

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:18 pmThat's normal,the NEC capital beltway station had gauntlet tracks for passenger trains.
https://www.railfanguides.us/md/capitolbeltway/

Up here, the gauntlet tracks are for high/wide freight only, normal freight just goes by the platforms at Plate C clearance, if something is outside of the clearance plate, the platforms have a couple inches of sacrificial wood edge that would get ripped off and is easily repaired. Some stations have drop-down platform edges instead that a crew could unbolt, drop for the high-wide, and then put back up. I've never heard of or seen the gauntlet tracks used.

I don't know what the obsession with the gauntlet tracks or mechanically retractable platforms is, just have a detector that detects if anything is even a mm out of Plate clearance before it gets on the shared line and it will be fine.

HG - The first-built GE Silverliner Four was RDG car 9018 in late 1973...RDG single cars 9018-9031 along with
130 (I believe that was the total number) Penn Central cars in the first order delivered primarily during 1974.

The add-on order in 1975-76 was a group of PC cars numbered in the high 300s (380-399?) and the Reading
100 series pairs (40 pairs/80 cars) of which the earliest ones had RDG diamond heralds applied...Cars that
were built and delivered after Conrail began April 1, 1976 had only the SEPTA round red logo...

The 231 car Silverliner Four fleet is now 47-48-49 years old at the time of this post and has held up very well
over time with just a few written off due to wrecks or other serious problems - a tribute to how well that they
were built and maintained over their years of service for SEPTA RRD and predecessors...

Silverliner Four cars ALL look to be running into their 50th year or more which will be 2026 for the record -
There is no replacement Silverliner Six - or for that matter a substantial MU car order at this date - and with
a timeline of three to five years after a carbuilder contract is finalized they will be needed for service being
that they are still the "backbone" of the SEPTA RRD fleet for the forseeable future...MACTRAXX

By comparison, the Arrow IIIs date to 1977 (first delivery to NJDOT 2/15/77, first train in service 5/25/77).
Given the delays in their replacements, they may also hit 50 years.

MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:09 am HG - The first-built GE Silverliner Four was RDG car 9018 in late 1973...RDG single cars 9018-9031 along with
130 (I believe that was the total number) Penn Central cars in the first order delivered primarily during 1974.

The add-on order in 1975-76 was a group of PC cars numbered in the high 300s (380-399?) and the Reading
100 series pairs (40 pairs/80 cars) of which the earliest ones had RDG diamond heralds applied...Cars that
were built and delivered after Conrail began April 1, 1976 had only the SEPTA round red logo...

The 231 car Silverliner Four fleet is now 47-48-49 years old at the time of this post and has held up very well
over time with just a few written off due to wrecks or other serious problems - a tribute to how well that they
were built and maintained over their years of service for SEPTA RRD and predecessors...

Silverliner Four cars ALL look to be running into their 50th year or more which will be 2026 for the record -
There is no replacement Silverliner Six - or for that matter a substantial MU car order at this date - and with
a timeline of three to five years after a carbuilder contract is finalized they will be needed for service being
that they are still the "backbone" of the SEPTA RRD fleet for the forseeable future...MACTRAXX

Reading page 79 of the 2023 Capital Budget plan, it doesn't seem like SEPTA is gonna replace them until 2028-2034
https://www5.septa.org/wp-content/uploa ... 0221-1.pdf

I found this story regarding progress - or lack thereof - on CRRC's work for MBTA's Red and Orange Line cars. Has anyone heard whether there's been similar problems with SEPTA's bi-level order?
https://www.masstransitmag.com/rail/veh ... train-deal

Jeff - For a closer look at the MBTA Orange and Red Line CRRC cars see the RR.Net MBTA Forum's
ongoing "play-by-play" concerning the long delays building and delivering these two car fleets...

With RRD ridership languishing around 60 percent compared to when "The Problem" began almost
three years ago SEPTA actually does now NOT need these cars - the available MU and P/P fleet will
be able to handle adequately RRD ridership levels that the system currently has...

An interesting period for RRD is coming up with the return of the Philadelphia Flower Show back to
Center City at the Pennsylvania Convention Center Saturday March 4 through Sunday March 12, 2023.
For those unaware Flower Show Week has been traditionally one of the busiest times of the year for
SEPTA RRD - the factor to observe will be RRD system ridership levels for each day of the Flower Show.

Yes - it will be interesting to see what the status is on building and delivering the CRRC multilevel cars
and for that matter just how far behind schedule this procurement is...MACTRAXX

As a frequent rush hour rider, my bigger concern is that some trains appear to be nearing the 4-5 car capacity and there doesn’t seem like there are the available conductors to either add more trains or more cars to some peak trains.

After being back for 20 months now, today was the first day where my wife had to come pick me up at another station. Wawa has a nice station.

rcthompson04 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 10:25 pm As a frequent rush hour rider, my bigger concern is that some trains appear to be nearing the 4-5 car capacity and there doesn’t seem like there are the available conductors to either add more trains or more cars to some peak trains.

After being back for 20 months now, today was the first day where my wife had to come pick me up at another station. Wawa has a nice station.

They can always add a car. The minimum crew size is always going to be one engineer, one conductor. Just means the passengers will be walking farther to go to the one open trap.

I always thought it was SEPTA policy to have one uniformed crew member per car.........