"Access to the Region's Core"

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northjerseybuff
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"Access to the Region's Core"

Post by northjerseybuff » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:13 pm

I found this website online...it's about the new tunnels. I signed up to get their newsletter and to be on the liason committee. I would strongly suggest all sign up. The Cutoff and other future projects are all listed on here.

www.accesstotheregionscore.com

Irish Chieftain

Post by Irish Chieftain » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:17 pm

Everyone here knows about Access to the Region's Core. I believe their credibility was dealt a severe blow by their retraction of the "Alternative G" where NJT was to access Grand Central Terminal's lower level via a new two-track tunnel.

They are strictly an independent study group. They don't have power to secure funds for any capital projects, but they can lobby for them, and as it appears, they've secured the support of NJT for the DEIS in relation to THE tunnel. I personally don't like some aspects of their agenda since they look to me like a "Close Hoboken Terminal Down" operation.

Besides, what would the Cutoff have to do with their agenda, unless they were getting trains from Scranton/the Poconos to midtown Manhattan, which was never part of the plans for the Cutoff?

Lots of other pipe-dream stuff on the related projects page, including the Metro-North Tappan Zee crossing, which they claim will not only lead to direct rail access to Stewart Airport (which would be the first for an airport within 75 miles of NYC) but also the implication is that it would connect to the Piermont Branch, thus connecting the northern end of the Pascack Valley and Port Jervis lines to GCT. Not to mention Penn Station access for Metro-North (where is all this extra room coming from? You'll need another 20 tracks at least)...

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Post by Jishnu » Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:39 pm

Irish Chieftain wrote:Lots of other pipe-dream stuff on the related projects page, including the Metro-North Tappan Zee crossing, which they claim will not only lead to direct rail access to Stewart Airport (which would be the first for an airport within 75 miles of NYC) but also the implication is that it would connect to the Piermont Branch, thus connecting the northern end of the Pascack Valley and Port Jervis lines to GCT. Not to mention Penn Station access for Metro-North (where is all this extra room coming from? You'll need another 20 tracks at least)...

Why would you need another 20 tracks to bring in at most 4 or 5 trains per (rush) hour into slots that are going to be vacated by LIRR moving some of their trains to GCT via ESA? Enquiring minds wnat to know.

Irish Chieftain

Post by Irish Chieftain » Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:20 pm

Absolutely no slots in NYP are to be vacated by LIRR when the ESA link opens.

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Post by DutchRailnut » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:20 pm

Correct LIRR will not loose slots in NYP. the ESA project adds additional slots for LIRR in GCT.
If anything you will see less trains at terminal accross from UN building
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Post by Jishnu » Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:00 pm

Irish Chieftain wrote:Absolutely no slots in NYP are to be vacated by LIRR when the ESA link opens.

OK. Still why would it take 20 more tracks to bring in 4 or 5 additional trains per hour? Or is MNRR talking about bringing in 10 or 15 trains per hour?

Of course, one way to do this would be to bring the MNRR trains as runthroughs to LIRR. That should reduce the need for additional tracks, no?

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Post by DutchRailnut » Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:32 pm

If co-operation could be established between MNCR and LIRR and MNCR and NJT to options could increase service and tru traffic.
trains from Hudson line could via empire connection head into LIRR.
And Stamford trains could continou onto NJT with new joint equipment fit for overhead catenary only. but in our buraucratic society it will never happen.
for first you need shoe mechanismes that can run shoes for both over or under running third rail.
for second NJT needs to invest in MU equipment, both are techinical impossibilities
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Post by Wdobner » Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:15 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:If co-operation could be established between MNCR and LIRR and MNCR and NJT to options could increase service and tru traffic. ... And Stamford trains could continou onto NJT with new joint equipment fit for overhead catenary only. but in our buraucratic society it will never happen. ... for second NJT needs to invest in MU equipment, both are techinical impossibilities


An excellent point. However, why would NJT need any different equipment to run to somewhere on the New Haven line? I believe the Arrow IIIs can run on both 11.5kv 25hz and 12.5kv 60hz power without a visit to MMC for a transformer tap change, so there'd be no reason they couldn't run through to New Haven from NYP. The ALPs of course can change their taps automatically so theoretically they can run through to Boston if need be. I don't really see any physical reason why ConnDOT cannot contract with NJT to provide Shoreline East service with run-through NJCL, NEC, and MidTown Direct trains. Admittedly the political dimension is such that this is little more than a pipe-dream, we'd need MN to let NJT on their tracks between SHELL and New Haven, we'd need Amtrak to realize NJT is not a competitor despite following virtually the same route, and we'd need NJT to invest in the new equipment (perhaps with ConnDOT funding). It's too bad the ALP46 is now non-FRA compatible, since it'd be great if a few more could be picked up for this service.

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Post by DutchRailnut » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:26 pm

I don't know were you get from that ALP-46 is not FRA complying as the frame was over engineered and exceeds the 1 million pound crush strenght, all other stuff stayed the same.
But as long as NJT does not get their door isues resolved no NJT trains will go off property.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Post by Wdobner » Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:09 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:I don't know were you get from that ALP-46 is not FRA complying as the frame was over engineered and exceeds the 1 million pound crush strenght, all other stuff stayed the same.
But as long as NJT does not get their door isues resolved no NJT trains will go off property.


Well, jokes on me. I could have sworn that the ALP46 was grouped in with a lot of equipment which was now grandfathered into the FRA's latest crashworthiness edict. I believe the P40s and their derivatives are all now grandfathered, so it just seemed like the ALPs would be as well. If the FRA is cool with the ALPs then why are we just sitting here? Lets get a * of them before the FRA decides they're 'weak'. Even if they just sit on a rotating RIP track for the rest of their lives it'd be money well spent :)

On a slightly more serious note, it's too bad ConnDOT can't pick up a half dozen ALP46s and some cars for what could be their share of a through-routed NEC/NJCL and Shoreline East operation. It'd give MN NH line customers a direct route into NYP, and potentially allow commuter service to CoOp City.

Irish Chieftain

Post by Irish Chieftain » Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:41 pm

On a slightly more serious note, it's too bad ConnDOT can't pick up a half dozen ALP46s and some cars for what could be their share of a through-routed NEC/NJCL and Shoreline East operation
Got the extra cash to qualify engineers on such a run...? not to mention the wherewithal for the overtime. That's a long ride, with all those stops, and it's murder on the brakes. NJT has the ALP46s; but nobody has the time to beat up a local for such a long trek, nor to add unified fares and ticketing on top of that. Might get a few railfans for such a ride, but most of your pax are getting off at Penn. (As for Co-Op City, people from there regard the $2 fare on the 6 train as a bargain into Manhattan and have bus service to Pelham Station if they want to go into CT.)

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Post by DutchRailnut » Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:05 pm

The purpose was to create tru service and free up slots. not to have commuter travel from trenton to new haven.
A train would need a shorter stop in NYP and after crew change the train could continou making stops in east bronx and new haven line.
It would utilize train and station better, you won't see Amtrak giving trackage rights on Hellgate branch and you won't see Commuter trains operate onNew Haven line with Amtrak crews so its all brainstorming but a no go
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Post by Wdobner » Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:47 pm

Irish Chieftain wrote:Got the extra cash to qualify engineers on such a run...? not to mention the wherewithal for the overtime.


I would assume the funding for this would come from ConnDOT's contribution to the operation of the line. The money saved in dropping Amtrak from the SLE service would go toward paying for the NJT through operation. It's somewhat far fetched since Conn Drops Only Tar would likely balk at the prospect, but an increase in funding would pay for the extension of SLE service from Stamford to New York Penn and an increased number of runs per day. I would imagine this would mostly be a peak hour operation, but off-peak would potentially be a very worthwhile operation.

Also, I can't see a reason they couldn't do a crew change at New York Penn station. This would reduce the trip for the engineers down to manageble sections, say Trenton to NYP and then NYP to New London. This way we avoid paying overtime to engineers who find themselves stuck in Old Saybrook with no hours left to operate who happens to need to get back to Trenton.

Irish Chieftain wrote:That's a long ride, with all those stops, and it's murder on the brakes.


Who says it has to be a local? The SLE trains from Old Saybrook through New Haven to Stamford only stop at New Haven, Bridgeport and Stamford. Perhaps NJT and ConnDOT can replace a few of the expresses into or out of GCT with through routed NJT trains. That would really depend upon what kind of capacity the New Haven line between New Haven and SHELL has to spare.

Irish Chieftain wrote:NJT has the ALP46s;...


Will they have any excess ALP46s after whatever capacity the ARC tunnel opens up is used? They're going to need a larger electric fleet at that point, especially with how much relief the NEC line needs, and nobody at NJT is talking about new EMUs. I thought it was always said that the ALP46s were ordered slightly in excess for the capacity increase which the takeover of the Clocker slots would give them. Why would NJT order the ALP46s in such excess that they'd have enough for the current service, ARC service increases, and this New Haven Line interlining. Other than what I said somewhat in jest, would they be looking to lease their electrics to the MBTA, ConnDOT, CalTrain or any other TAs?

Irish Chieftain wrote:but nobody has the time to beat up a local for such a long trek, nor to add unified fares and ticketing on top of that. Might get a few railfans for such a ride, but most of your pax are getting off at Penn.


Well no kidding, that's the idea. It's a way to get a few more passengers through the tunnels by turning what otherwise is a deadhead move to Sunnyside into a passenger train to New Haven, Old Saybrook, or New London and back. I hardly expect people to ride through, and perhaps to simplify the ticketing issues you raise the trains should be fumigated at New York Penn. It's somewhat inconvenient for the passengers, but just use MN tickets between NYP and New London and NJT tickets between NYP and Trenton. As with the Philadelphia to NYC with the change at Trenton tickets the NJT TVMs could be reconfigured to dispense tickets with Stamford, Bridgeport, New Haven, as well as all SLE stations available. Presumably the MN machines could do the same thing to dispense tickets with major NEC, NJCL and M&E tickets. The only real problem with that approach is that MN's tickets wouldn't work at Secaucus or Newark Airport stations. Perhaps one or two NJT TVMs could be supplied at the stations these trains would be stopping at.

Irish Chieftain wrote:As for Co-Op City, people from there regard the $2 fare on the 6 train as a bargain into Manhattan and have bus service to Pelham Station if they want to go into CT.


I'm sure the folks in Port Washington regard Long Island bus to the 7 train as a great bargain yet people still use that line. The same would be true of people along the Harlem Line when compared to the 2 train, or along the M&E when compared to NJT bus to NYP for PATH. Just because there is a ridiculously slow route which provides low user cost transit into NYC is no reason CoOp City shouldn't have a commuter rail station. It's pretty logical that there must be some folks at CoOp city who would like a fast ride to Manhattan's west side and right now they're being bypassed by those trains.

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Post by Jtgshu » Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:15 am

A crew change could be done in NYP, ala Septa at Suburban station - one crew brings train in, hops off, other hops on, all while the passengers are loading, and by the time everyone gets on, the crew is ready to go, either to Trenton, 30th st, or New London or New Haven.

What do the brakes have to do with anything? So instead of the equipment doing 5 round trips a day here in NJ, it does one or two round trips, Trenton to New London - and back.

Dutch, what do you mean door issues? Im assuming you mean the "reliability" of teh doors, which although is less than desireable, isn't debalitating (at least 99 percent of the time isn't.....)
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Post by DutchRailnut » Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:08 am

Ok brakes are good for 1500 miles between inspection as long as the train keeps moving in same day.
As far as door issues on MNCR all trains run with door power interlock.
no exeptions unless a fault occures enroute, so no locomotives without door interlocks, no doors not working etc.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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