Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

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DECA
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by DECA » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:34 pm

I was in the Willet Rd area today, walked down and here are a couple of pic. of rail where it is cut and even one crossbuck is removed or stolen off the Willet Rd Crossing
Attachments
Blocked rail.jpg
Last edited by DECA on Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DECA
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by DECA » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:37 pm

Second Pic. near Willet
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Cut Rail.jpg

DECA
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by DECA » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:39 pm

Last picture
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Cross Bucks removed.jpg

ctclark1
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by ctclark1 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:27 am

I see now where the rail was removed in Google Earth.

According to Street View the crossbuck has been missing since at least October 2012. Also at that time there was a red target mounted at the point where the rail is removed, which appears gone in your pictures. https://goo.gl/maps/iBGid5sFH472" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

lvrr325
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by lvrr325 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:51 am

Still amazes me that despite the maintenance headache of those drawbridges being such that NS abandoned theirs a long time ago, no one kept any of the belt lines intact to bypass them. It would have been cheap in 1977 to cut both former NYC and EL into the LV and use theirs. Or cut that over to the NYC where it does now and use the end of that. Today, there's no connections to go through to the west, although it doesn't appear as though it would be hard to build them. NS would need just one built, CSX would have to build two.

ctclark1
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by ctclark1 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:17 pm

NS (N&W/NKP) abandoned theirs when all they needed to cross the river for, essentially, was Buffalo Junction Yard. At the time, it made sense to strike a deal with Conrail to use the BCK bridge. Also at the time, as I mentioned above, the south leg of the Buffalo Line to Seneca Yard made sense for Conrail because it was all theirs, so they could logically use Seneca to assemble trains headed down that line and take the southern belt. The overpass was configured in such a way that this made sense to them. They could also use the southern leg and the Ebenezer Secondary or the Compromise if they needed to bypass CP Draw. When NS took the Buffalo and Southern Tier lines they kind of got put up the creek without a paddle because it meant more traffic over the bridge to Bison yard and the Buffalo line. The lines that would have remotely allowed them access to the southern "belt" of the Buffalo Line had long been removed, namely the PRR line that would've connected just north of the current Buffalo Line bridge over NS, was already long removed and honestly connected in a way that wouldn't have been useful anyway. Even with these original connections in place (the LV and PRR connections to the southern belt in Lackawanna) they wouldn't have made any sense for NS to be able to use, logistically. They were still better off using the Bison and Ebenezer tracks they do today.

On the second part, there's no way that would ever make sense for today's layout either. If the LV was intact from Lackawanna north, there'd crossover for CSX and NS where NS wanted to get from the LV/PRR half to the NYC portion northward, and CSX wanted to get from the NYC half to the LV line northward. Even beyond that, CSX using the LV connection north would drop them at either the old Erie or DL&W yards at Bison, doing them absolutely no good. CSX using the NYC connection instead through the old Gardenville Yards would drop them at the main line on the wrong side and facing the wrong direction of Frontier yard.

While we're slightly off topic of the Gardenville line and sort of on connections to the west over the creek, here's a pipe dream for you. What really needs to happen is CSX and NS need to sit down and hammer out a deal whereby they
  1. Jointly build a new bridge in place of the NKP bridge and configure some crossovers that allow CSX and NS to use the northern bridge.
  2. Since NS owns the Buffalo Line still, they need to help B&P with constructing a "Martin Road Connection" to get them from the Buffalo line to the old B&O main, in preparation for the next step.
  3. Take the CP Draw bridge out and build a new one in its place to accommodate NS, B&P, BSOR & SBRR (if the latter two even use it anymore). Since NS and B&P would already have their connections from the above two steps, this would only be a temporary bottleneck over the first new bridge until the second new bridge is opened.
  4. Once the second bridge is opened, CSX would take primary ownership of the north bridge while NS takes primary ownership of the south bridge, but connections and agreements remain that CSX could use the south bridge if needed and NS could use the north bridge if needed. B&P, SBRR, and BSOR could continue to use the south bridge if they wanted.
The only reason I preclude B&P/SB/BS from using the north bridge is that NS has less traffic so would probably be a better fit for trackage rights. Also with the exception of BSOR, I don't think B&P and SBRR would logically be able to get new connections to a bridge in that northern spot without some really tight and convoluted crossovers.

But I digress. The unfortunate answers overall are:
  • without using the old Gardenville yards, the old configuration of the Gardenville line served no purpose to NYC, Conrail OR CSX as a connector between Lackawanna and Depew and likely never would.
  • Without a connection to the NS line or any of the yards, the new configuration of the PRR Buffalo Line serves no purpose to NS or B&P as a connector between Lackawanna and GJ.
  • In order for this line to ever be viable to B&P, a connection needs to be built at Martin Road to tie the PRR Buffalo Line to the B&O Third Main to access Buffalo Creek Yard.
  • If some absolutely horrible catastrophe were to befall CP-DRAW, NS could in a pinch use the Martin Road connector and Buffalo Creek Yard to run trains on a long roundabout path from Bison yard over the Transco Wye, down the Ebenezer, to the Buffalo Line, up the B&O, then turn the trains in Buffalo Creek Yard and head south down the Lake Erie District, but this would be extremely complex in operations given limitations at the Transco and sharing the BCY with B&P.
  • IF (that's a BIG IF) NS ever wanted to permenantly bypass CP-DRAW and head straight to Bison Yard, they could potentially rebuilt the PRR/LV line from Lackawanna to William St and come into Bison from that side, but again, they'd have to turn all trains there if they didn't use the Bison Runner over CP Draw.

lvrr325
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by lvrr325 » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:49 am

CSX could cut to the LV along Walden Ave. east of the old Gardenville connection. LV then goes under and follows along south of the EL before swinging south, allowing for connections there.

Matt Langworthy
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by Matt Langworthy » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:27 pm

There is a discussion in The Lost Railroads Of Western New York: Volum 1 The Lehigh Valley In Buffalo which says Conrail did consider using the former Lehigh & Lake Erie RR in the early '80s when it was trying to decide between Frontier Yard (built in 1957) and Bison Yard (completed in 1962). The plan was to cut over from CP 429 on the former NYC to the Lehigh Valley and former DL&W to access Bison Yard. The L&LE connection would have completed the connection to South Buffalo. However, Conrail was under a mandate to cut spending, so the NYC/BCK routing was chosen because it was much cheaper. Gardenville didn't even seem to be part of the discussion.

The one thing that does surprise me is that the D&H was not allowed access to the former DL&W Abbott yard and connecting tracks so they could interchange directly with the B&O and SB.
Last edited by Matt Langworthy on Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Matt Langworthy

"It is highly likely that the 1990s were an overrated decade."

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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by Matt Langworthy » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:30 pm

ctclark1 wrote:While we're slightly off topic of the Gardenville line and sort of on connections to the west over the creek, here's a pipe dream for you. What really needs to happen is CSX and NS need to sit down and hammer out a deal whereby they
  1. Jointly build a new bridge in place of the NKP bridge and configure some crossovers that allow CSX and NS to use the northern bridge.
  2. Since NS owns the Buffalo Line still, they need to help B&P with constructing a "Martin Road Connection" to get them from the Buffalo line to the old B&O main, in preparation for the next step.
  3. Take the CP Draw bridge out and build a new one in its place to accommodate NS, B&P, BSOR & SBRR (if the latter two even use it anymore). Since NS and B&P would already have their connections from the above two steps, this would only be a temporary bottleneck over the first new bridge until the second new bridge is opened.
  4. Once the second bridge is opened, CSX would take primary ownership of the north bridge while NS takes primary ownership of the south bridge, but connections and agreements remain that CSX could use the south bridge if needed and NS could use the north bridge if needed. B&P, SBRR, and BSOR could continue to use the south bridge if they wanted.
The only reason I preclude B&P/SB/BS from using the north bridge is that NS has less traffic so would probably be a better fit for trackage rights. Also with the exception of BSOR, I don't think B&P and SBRR would logically be able to get new connections to a bridge in that northern spot without some really tight and convoluted crossovers.
I agree with you 100%. And yes, both the B&P (which owns SB) and BSOR use CP Draw regularly.
Matt Langworthy

"It is highly likely that the 1990s were an overrated decade."

lvrr325
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by lvrr325 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:01 pm

At this point it would cost as much or more to rebuild the LV, much of the ROW has been excavated and multiple bridges are gone. It's likely portions of the ROW have been sold off - a portion seems to have become part of a park not far from where the existing line swings over to the NYC ROW.

However, the requirements to use the Gardenville as far as the PRR, and the PRR up to whatever the junction is called where all those lines meet, is rather minimal. The same sort of connection that the B&P wants to make would be needed where it crosses NS, and to continue west on CSX.

I doubt making those connections would cost as much as rebuilding a new bridge in place of the abandoned in place NKP structure.

Matt Langworthy
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by Matt Langworthy » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:10 pm

The BCK and NKP bridges would provide a more direct route than using the Gardenville/PRR bypass... which also fails to address CSX's long term needs. From what I've been told, CSX at least has an interest in the NKP bridge, because CP Draw will eventually need to be rehabbed or replaced. I doubt they want to be stuck with just CP-1 if CP Draw is taken out of service (even temporarily). If NS and CSX work together, they could achieve what neither of them could do efficiently alone. Among other things, NS's interchange with BSOR would be strongly hampered if they no longer used CP Draw. Also, there might be clearance issues for NS if they try to run double stacks and auto racks on the Gardenville/PRR alignment. NS probably took those factors into consideration when they took over their share of Conrail- let's not forget NS did use the Buffalo Line for a few years until they moved eastbound traffic to the Tier. Sad to say, I think Gardenville's day has come and gone.
Last edited by Matt Langworthy on Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Matt Langworthy

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ctclark1
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by ctclark1 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:56 pm

Matt Langworthy wrote:<snip> Gardenville didn't even seem to be part of the discussion.
As I understand it, NYC had largely dismantled the Gardenville yards by that point, after rebuilding Frontier and returning to that as their primary Buffalo yard. Gardenville was built as both a convenient freight bypass of Buffalo and used an older setup that catered to the one-way-running of pre-CTC (split yard). Frontier, for all intents and purposes, appears to have been rebuilt as CTC was being implemented, allowing for easier access to trains from both directions.

I also feel like Gardenville suited thru-trains better than it would've served as an actual classification yard, and was probably more useful as a crew-change/equipment layover point than splitting trains and sending them on to different destinations. Looking at the old layout of Frontier, the Stockyards, and other NYC yards in the area that they did still use during the time of Gardenville, I have to think I'm right in the assumption that thru-trains were probably almost exclusive at Gardenville while locals for the Buffalo area and those that required major reclassification probably still used Frontier.

None of this, even if Gardenville yards were still intact at the time, would have really helped Conrail...

sd80mac
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by sd80mac » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:26 am

I cant understand why cant they just remove the Gardenville yard and keep the the mainline which they can use to bypass the traffic down that line that does not required to be working in any of these Buffalo yards.

Toward to end of CR era and in first couple of CSX years, frontier yard have been jammed that the trains couldn't get through. With the bypass, it would avoid the jam and they would save probably half hour or so through Buffalo.

I looked at the map, the ROW still is intact except for one home development which they can run track around. They still have bridges at all creeks/river. some roads over/underpass bridges are still there.

when economic and oil turns around, it's going to jam up the track at froniter yard again.

Matt Langworthy
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by Matt Langworthy » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:03 pm

ctclark1 wrote:None of this, even if Gardenville yards were still intact at the time, would have really helped Conrail...
Agreed. They were looking to cut excess yard capacity, which led to the demise of Tifft and other facilities in greater Buffalo.
Matt Langworthy

"It is highly likely that the 1990s were an overrated decade."

Matt Langworthy
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Re: Gardenville line is clear. 12-20

Post by Matt Langworthy » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:13 pm

sd80mac wrote:I looked at the map, the ROW still is intact except for one home development which they can run track around. They still have bridges at all creeks/river. some roads over/underpass bridges are still there.
Good luck convincing property owners who don't want to sell, as well as NIMBYs with political allies (in either party).

sd80mac wrote:when economic and oil turns around, it's going to jam up the track at froniter yard again.
That seems doubtful. Conrail had a traffic jam in the late '90s because they were running 70+ trains daily on the Chicago Line. Conrail was using the Water Level Route as their preferred route (over the former PRR main) at the time. Some of that traffic is now moving on NS, so it won't be coming back to the Water Level Route. After the dust settled from the CR split, CSX has run about 50 trains per day. There was another traffic jam circa 2009 or '10, which was caused by Frontier Yard being closed... and alleviated when CSX reopened Frontier.
Matt Langworthy

"It is highly likely that the 1990s were an overrated decade."

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