Abandoned Stations Hudson line

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BobLI
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Abandoned Stations Hudson line

Post by BobLI » Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:46 am

How many stations have been abandoned between GCT and Croton Harmon? And was there many stations from Poughkeepsie and Albany? Is there any place to find old schedules for these stations?

Tom Curtin
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Abandoned

Post by Tom Curtin » Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:17 am

Well, I'm not an authority on this so it probably is not complete, but here's a start:

In Metro North territory:
59th St.
73rd St.
86th St.
(above 3 inside the Park Ave. tunnel. Abandoned early in the 20th century when the subway was built. Remnants of all 3 are visible.)
138th St. ("The Bronx")
High Bridge
Mount St. Vincent
Croton North Station
Oscawanna
Crugers
Montrose
(above 2 were replaced by "Cortlandt" which I believe is not at the location of either old station)
Manitou (This was restored to part time use, usually on weekends for hikers, etc.)
Chelsea

North of Poughkeepsie (the ones I can think of. This part is really incomplete, but here's a start):
Hyde Park
Staatsburgh
Barrytown
Stuyvesant

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Otto Vondrak
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Post by Otto Vondrak » Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:22 am

Here's an undated map of the Hudson Division that shows many stations no longer in service:

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/imag ... hudson.jpg

Here's a map of the Terminal Division:

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/imag ... ectric.jpg

You can find old timetables on eBay, just keep a look out.

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BobLI
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Post by BobLI » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:33 pm

Thank you for the replies

harmon44

Post by harmon44 » Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:27 pm

Roa Hook- North of Peekskill, where oil tanks are today
Manitou-was abandoned, now has one train scheduled each way during week and two each way on weekends.
Breakneck-two stops each way on weekends for hikers. Original stop was closer to tunnels for a ferry to Cornwall
Dutchess Junction
New Hamburg was abandoned and then was re-opened.

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Post by Otto Vondrak » Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:45 pm

When was Manitou abandoned? It's always been in the Metro-North timetable for as long as I can remember...

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harmon44

Post by harmon44 » Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:57 pm

During Penn Central, Manitou ceased to be used. In the late 70's it and breakneck were made flag stops for hikers. I remember the weekend it started, but not the year. On the train I was riding, the engineer forgot about the flag stop special order and he had to dump the air for the two hikers at Breakneck. Under Metro-north they always had the limited service. Manitou went out of servic about the same time as Oscawanna.

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Post by pnaw10 » Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:51 pm

Some interesting things I never knew here... thanks Otto, for posting that map of the Hudson Division from way back whenever. This raises some questions and other thoughts...

First, Tom Curtin -- You're right about Cortlandt not being at the former location of either Crugers or Montrose. It's about halfway between the two.

Second... when and why were the "four or more tracks" reduced to just two tracks north of Croton-Harmon? Being born in 1979, I've only known the Upper Hudson to have two tracks. Even in reading up on the history of the line, I've never seen anything that mentioned how there used to be more tracks. It's just weird to think of having four tracks through there.

Third, does anyone have dates for when any of these stations closed down? The only one I remember being abandoned by Metro-North was Croton North, sometime in the early-to-mid 80's. Never made sense why they'd have a tiny station so close to such a major station anyway.

As for other stations to the north, I can't disagree with the decisions to close Oscawanna, Dutchess and Chelsea. Whenever I drive US Route 9 from I-84 to Croton-Harmon, it seems like you're seeing signs to the nearest MN station every 10-15 minutes. I would say the current stations are spaced just far enough apart where you're never driving TOO far to get to any station.

Tony Tantillo

Post by Tony Tantillo » Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:05 pm

When the proposal to extend service north to Tivoli from Poughkeepsie was made, what were the intermediate stops? Was there any talk about widening the right of way to 3 or 4 tracks ? Just curious ...

Lackawanna484

Post by Lackawanna484 » Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:10 pm

Tony Tantillo wrote:When the proposal to extend service north to Tivoli from Poughkeepsie was made, what were the intermediate stops? Was there any talk about widening the right of way to 3 or 4 tracks ? Just curious ...


With regard to Hyde Park, there was a proposal to build a new station north of the former location (which is now a museum). Access to the former station is via a narrow and curving road, to a location with very limited parking.

There was a map floating around the internet with the outline of the proposal, but I don't recall add'l tracks

harmon44

Post by harmon44 » Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:40 am

Missing north of Poughkeepsie was Tivoli and Germantown.

As far as the tracks north of Croton, there are still 3 tracks from Croton to Peekskill. Two tracks Peekskill North. There is a long siding at Beacon. The tracks began coming out in the late 60's. Just a note, there was only two tracks from Peekskill to Kings Dock (Tower 48 in NYC days) CP 48 thereafter.

Although Montrose and Crugers are close together, there were many people who were able to walk to the station. The placement of the Cortlandt station made walking very difficult. Still a lot of drop offs.

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Post by Nester » Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:47 am

pnaw10 wrote:As for other stations to the north, I can't disagree with the decisions to close Oscawanna, Dutchess and Chelsea. Whenever I drive US Route 9 from I-84 to Croton-Harmon, it seems like you're seeing signs to the nearest MN station every 10-15 minutes. I would say the current stations are spaced just far enough apart where you're never driving TOO far to get to any station.


There aren't enough commuters who live in the town of Fishkill south of Beacon to warrant re-opening Dutchess Junction (that little mountain next to the tracks hinders development ;)) If the ferry ever came back, then maybe you could justify re-opening it.

It would be nice to see the Chelsea stop re-opened, but since there's no (insufficient) land available for parking, it would only be attractive to the locals and the folks in that mega-complex Chelsea Ridge up the road.

Who's to say what driving "too far" is? When I lived on LI I thought a half-mile was too long, and I drove it for years ;)

The real problem with adding stops on the Upper Hudson is that it's going to wreak havoc on the schedule... push-pulls are not known for their superior acceleration.

Short adding a stop as a connector from a West shore ferry, I don't see much of a need for more stops north of Croton on the existing line. Beyond Poughkeepsie, there's a clear need that Nimby-ism is holding back. There are a lot of people who simply don't care and will ride a MN trains 2 hours each way for that Manhattan salary and Dutchess lifestyle.

Nester

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Post by pnaw10 » Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:33 pm

Just an addition to this topic. I just won a 1943 timetable for the NY Central Hudson Division on eBay. From the item description:

This route went from Grand Central Station, through to 125th St., The Bronx, High Bridge, Morris Heights, University Heights, Marble Hill, Spuyten Duyvil, Riverdale, Mt. St. Vincent, Ludlow, Yonkers, Glenwood, Greystone, Hastings-on-Hudson, Dobbs Ferry, Ardsley-on-Hudson, Irvington, Tarrytown, Philipse Manor, Scarborough, Ossining, Harmon, Croton-on-Hudson, Oscawana, Crugers, Montrose, ending at Peekskill.


The pictures posted on eBay don't get too close up, but I thought it was interesting to see how today's timetables don't look that much different from the timetables from 1943. I'm looking forward to getting this in my hands for a closer look.

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Post by Dieter » Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:44 pm

For some reason, the year 1971 comes to mind when Manitou and Oscawana were closed. I remember though passing Oscawana in 1975 and the platform was still there, complete with lights. Penn Central had a knack for telling the public that due to decreased ridership, blah, blah, blah - a station would be temporarily closed, pending review. They never had any intention of reopening any of them.

Yes, the NIMBY's killed service beyond Poughkeepsie for now. I can't blame them, as it will bring a juggernaut of development into the area and jack up their taxes. Nobody needs it, and enough people have been forced out of where they wanted to live because of taxes. Don't rank on the NIMBY's, as you will join their ranks soon enough once you are looking down the barrel of living on a fixed income, or get sick of seeing a place you like get built up into something resembling a city.

Times will change, and through commuter service will probably be reestablished to Albany within twenty years. As the land usage and demographics shift, the stations will change too. New facilities with new names will appear, much as Cortlandt has filled in the gap of everything between Harmon and Peekskill. That was unforseen just 15 years ago.

A question to ask in regards to stations axed north of Poughkeepsie is WHEN and WHY were these stations terminated? What made the MTA decide to stop at Poughkeepsie, rather than Rheincliff or Hudson? Why did MTA box themselves in at Poughkeepsie without leaving an open door for free extension in the future?

Anyone know what year passenger service ceased at Tivoli? All these closures probably occured under Penn Central.
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Nester
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Post by Nester » Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:19 pm

Dieter wrote:What made the MTA decide to stop at Poughkeepsie, rather than Rheincliff or Hudson? Why did MTA box themselves in at Poughkeepsie without leaving an open door for free extension in the future?


Hudson is in Columbia County, and the MTA is not authorized to operate in that county. The residents don't pay MTA taxes, either.

I would guess that Po-Town was the end of the line for commuter rail service under NYC/PC, and so the MTA just picked up where they left off.

Nester

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