Expansion

I want to toss out a radical concept.

First let me say, as I've probably clear, I'm definitely ok with some expansions into/through Canada.

But, perhaps Amtrak should consider expansions into Mexico? Problem is, I'm not sure how many would be viable and if they'd work.

Major cities are either right near the border (e.g. Tijuana, Ciudad Juarez) or so far away (Mexico City) as I don't think it would be practical.

On the upside, I'm sure there's a HUGE market at Tijuana, on the other, I suspect the logistics would be overwhelming.

The issue with Tijuana or Juarez is passport control. Don’t expect speed from Customs and Immigration.

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:48 pm The issue with Tijuana or Juarez is passport control. Don’t expect speed from Customs and Immigration.

15 or so years ago I attended a business meeting in San Diego and stayed an extra day at my own expense. Among other touristy/railfan things I rode the lightrail from the Amtrak Station to Tijuana to walk about there for a few hours. Only about 15 or 16 miles, so easy transfer to and from an Amtrak train.

Greg Moore wrote:Exactly. Consider Canada a "shortcut" to another market. And if Canada wants to add stations, it can pony up its share.

Similarly , extending the Vermonter back to Montreal isn't as much about "oh let's serve Canadians at expense of Americans" as much as it is "closing a link and opening up a market".

Agreed, though in the case of the Vermonter/Montrealer that's going to have to wait until the Canadians finally build the preclearance zone at Gare centrale de Montreal. A 2 hour border inspection; even if done on board) is a deal killer, especially for a night train.
This also rules out a Toronto-Chicago train unless you add sealed through cars to the Lake Shore Limited.



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The old International was a joint Amtrak-Via train, and I think Via and Amtrak each subsidized the part that was in their own country; I saw it once in CUS with Amtrak equipment and Via locomotives. The reasons it stopped running were customs delays and Michigan politicians wanting a different schedule (better for some particular set of day trips, or something like that). There are still Amtrak trains to Pt. Huron and Via trains to Sarnia, so bringing back the International would not have to cost much if anything; bringing it back while keeping hte schedule Michigan wanted would only require paying for a new frequency in Michigan and arranging for it to run through to Toronto, maybe on an existing schedule.

Ken W2KB wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:02 pm

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:48 pm The issue with Tijuana or Juarez is passport control. Don’t expect speed from Customs and Immigration.

15 or so years ago I attended a business meeting in San Diego and stayed an extra day at my own expense. Among other touristy/railfan things I rode the lightrail from the Amtrak Station to Tijuana to walk about there for a few hours. Only about 15 or 16 miles, so easy transfer to and from an Amtrak train.

I suppose a thing that *could* be theoretically interesting would be to extend the Surfliners to San Ysidro, or to a passport controlled station in Tijuanna. The logistics of running surfliners between the trolleys over the line would be at the very least the sort of things that railfans would travel to San Diego to see

Alphaboi wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:12 pm

Greg Moore wrote:Exactly. Consider Canada a "shortcut" to another market. And if Canada wants to add stations, it can pony up its share.

Similarly , extending the Vermonter back to Montreal isn't as much about "oh let's serve Canadians at expense of Americans" as much as it is "closing a link and opening up a market".

Agreed, though in the case of the Vermonter/Montrealer that's going to have to wait until the Canadians finally build the preclearance zone at Gare centrale de Montreal. A 2 hour border inspection; even if done on board) is a deal killer, especially for a night train.
This also rules out a Toronto-Chicago train unless you add sealed through cars to the Lake Shore Limited.



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My understanding was that the preclearance zone was basically close to completed pre-Covid, but yes, that would really help a lot. And since they're building it for the Adirondack, it makes sense to leverage it for 2 trains.

And yes, my current thought for anything passing through Canada to Detroit is start as a sealed train.

[quote="Greg Moore"]I want to toss out a radical concept.

First let me say, as I've probably clear, I'm definitely ok with some expansions into/through Canada.

But, perhaps Amtrak should consider expansions into Mexico? Problem is, I'm not sure how many would be viable and if they'd work.

Major cities are either right near the border (e.g. Tijuana, Ciudad Juarez) or so far away (Mexico City) as I don't think it would be practical.

On the upside, I'm sure there's a HUGE market at Tijuana, on the other, I suspect the logistics would be overwhelming.
[/quote]

The natural Mexican service extension would be to bring the [i]Texas Eagle[/i] from San Antonio across the border to Monterrey. Monterrey is the business and industrial capital of Mexico. Metro pop is something like 5mm, it does a huge amount of cross-border business and is ~130 miles south of the Rio Grande. I believe this was the route taken by the [i]Aztec Eagle[/i], the MoPac/T&P/NdeM service from St. Louis to Mexico City (which at one point carried through sleepers from New York off the New York Central.)

No clue what the state of the tracks are once you get over the Mexican border. Nuevo Laredo to Monterrey is Kansas City Southern de Mexico, so presumably its at least US Class 3 equivalent. Crew might be an issue considering there's no national Mexican passenger carrier.

Also, obviously, the security situation in the Estado Libre de Nuevo León is somewhat different than that in the Province of Ontario...

I seem to remember that when the Mexican government sold the national railroads (FCNdeM) to KCS and others, part of the deal was that there would be no passenger trains. The wording I remember, maybe from somewhere on this site, is "no Mextrak". So the private railroad companies would have no obligation to even consider hosting Amtrak trains; they could charge whatever they wanted for whatever schedule and dispatching situation they were willing to provide.

Personally, I hope that in my lifetime (maybe I have another 35-40 years) we can get to an economic and political situation in N. America in which the US-Canadian border is as casual as it was in the 80s or even totally open like a Schengen border, and the US-Mexico border is something like the Canadian border is today. This isn't some radical idea; it's how things were until the mid 20th century. Several railroads were built based on the assumption that free people in a free country could cross the borders freely. What would it take to get back there? Mexico and Central America would have to become prosperous and peaceful enough that very few people would want to move to the US to take lousy jobs here. (That wouldn't have to be such an enormous change, because most people would rather stay where they are, where their family is, etc. The US would have to somehow stop being the destination of a major and violent drug trade. Maybe some other things. My own, rather tentative, ideas on how to achieve these changes would be totally OT. I realize this is not strictly a railroad comment, and I don't mean to start an immigration-and-borders debate on here. I'm just thinking about circumstances in which passenger train service might once again be simple and convenient on busy cross-border routes.

Arborwayfan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:37 pm...This isn't some radical idea; it's how things were until the mid 20th century. Several railroads were built based on the assumption that free people in a free country could cross the borders freely. What would it take to get back there?

If I recall correctly you didn't need a passport to cross the Canadian border until ca. 2005 or so. I certainly went to Canada plenty of times as a child and young adult in the '80s and '90s without one.

Simply getting the Surfliner to San Ysidro would add a huge market for Amtrak. The border bus market is nuts, especially at that terminal. Even a single track extension along the light rail would help.

Monterrey is definitely another extension that should be seeing regular service into a regularly operated Texas triangle. Tornado Bus, and others, do wild business in and out of Texas, both domestically and internationally, as well as within Texas itself.

Nogales isn't nearly as big a city, but I wonder if it would still be a worthwhile extension if the LA-PHX-Tucscon proposal ever comes to fruition

Do any of the possible routes cross the border right next to a busy highway, so that a whole bunch of agents from the highway border post (say two per car) could easily inspect the train? The big advantage of a train -- hauling hundreds of people at once -- becomes a disadvantage at the border. A bus is held up for a few minutes, but a train is held up for and hour or two, if the same number of agents are trying to process five or ten times as many people. And it's not reasonable to expect CBP to send a dozen agents to some remote rail border crossing to inspect one train once or twice a day -- would not be an efficient use of staff.

Laredo is maybe a mile from the nearest road crossing? Nogales and Juarez/El Paso are right next to one. TJ/San Ysidro, I'd probably just say do San Ysidro since that's where the transportation hub is anyway, although if you do an in station one at TJ it lets everyone bypass the lines at San Ysidro

If El Paso and San Diego local transit agencies can not get streetcars or light rail trains across the Mexican border, why do you think Amtrak can?
The San Diego Trolley Blue Line towards Tijuana has 16,000,000+ yearly ridership, almost half the entire system. While not everyone rides the trains all the way to the border, many do. 16 million ridership on just that one line is more than half that Amtrak gets nationally, and more than half again as much as Amtrak gets from NY's Pennsylvania Station. If they can not cross the border with that much local ridership, why should Amtrak?

Golly, the entire San Diego Trolley network gets 38 million passengers yearly, more than 10% more than the entire national Amtrak network. Why are we continuing to subsidize a national passenger rail system when a light rail system not from amongst the 10 largest metros in the USA gets more riders?

Expansions will only occur where Amtrak can find partners willing to subsidize more trains. Expansions to new cities on new lines require lay over facilities along the route where the trains can get minor maintenance, and be refueled. Many proposals to date have not even considered where these trains will be maintained. For example, Cleveland to Cincinnati via Columbus, where in any of these three cities can Amtrak maintain these trains? If you do not have the infrastructure in place to do minor maintenance, the trains will break down.

NIMBYkiller wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:29 pm Nogales isn't nearly as big a city, but I wonder if it would still be a worthwhile extension if the LA-PHX-Tucscon proposal ever comes to fruition

Not so sure that Nogales has anywhere near the traffic, but could be an argument for service to Green Valley/Madera. Tucson is growing north & south, thanks to mountains on the east and west...