Dieselization of Harlem Div

This is a request for those with l-o-n-g memories to think back 60 and a few more years. It is well known that the last steam passenger run on the Harlem occurred 9/11/52, and there are a number of photos of the event. What I'm wondering is: did this passenger dieselization happen in a short period --- like, over weeks or a month --- or was there a period of months in which steam and the new RS-3s shared the service. I have not seen any photos to suggest the latter; however, i do remember, and made notes in the 60s that, the 8200 series RS-3s that operated there had builder's plates of July 1951, more than a year before Harlem steam folded its tents. Therefore, either those RS-3s were delivered new to some other service than the Harlem; or some of them were running on the Harlem for a while before steam ended. Any recollections of this? I remember Harlem steam but only as a little toddler, so needless to say I wasn't recording engines and consists then !!

The Alcos first assigned to the Harlem Division suburban trains were Alcos numbered in the low 8200s and low 8300s. In the late 1950s or early 1960s, after the West Shore, Putnam Division and B&A services were eliminated or reduced, Alcos numbered between about 8247 and 8279 were assigned.

There are many many photos out there that will back this up and it also has been mentioned in articles about the Harlem in the Central Headlight. And, having grown up in north White Plains, I watched it happen with my own eyes.

Charlie Smith who was then in Central's Mechanical Department as an equipment engineer (later Locomotive Supervisor-System) told me the switch was made because the first group had steam generators that were both hard to maintain and hard to start. The second group of Alcos had heaters that were easier to work with and preferred by crews.

The heaters were Elesco and Worthington though don't ask me which was which.

Tommy Meehan wrote:The Alcos first assigned to the Harlem Division suburban trains were Alcos numbered in the low 8200s and low 8300s. In the late 1950s or early 1960s, after the West Shore, Putnam Division and B&A services were eliminated or reduced, Alcos numbered between about 8247 and 8279 were assigned.

There are many many photos out there that will back this up and it also has been mentioned in articles about the Harlem in the Central Headlight. And, having grown up in north White Plains, I watched it happen with my own eyes.

Charlie Smith who was then in Central's Mechanical Department as an equipment engineer (later Locomotive Supervisor-System) told me the switch was made because the first group had steam generators that were both hard to maintain and hard to start. The second group of Alcos had heaters that were easier to work with and preferred by crews.

The heaters were Elesco and Worthington though don't ask me which was which.

All of the Alco RS-3's that I am familiar with had a Vapor OK 4625 steam generator as did most if not all EMD road switchers of the period. Elesco made steam generators that the New Haven equipped their first FM road switchers with but they were not considered successful and not too long after entering service all ten FM's had their steam generators removed and replaced by a huge chunk of concrete. There were a number of models of Vapor Steam Generators but their steam generators were the most successful and widely used in the industry.
Noel Weaver

(The Putnam Division was dieselized in September 1951, and originally was handled by a fleet of Lima diesels... This helped eliminate the steam facilities at Yorktown Heights, helping to reduce the costs of operation... I'm sure the railroad was anxious to eliminate the steam facilities at North White Plains and Brewster to realize further economy...)

Tommy Meehan wrote:The Alcos first assigned to the Harlem Division suburban trains were Alcos numbered in the low 8200s and low 8300s. In the late 1950s or early 1960s, after the West Shore, Putnam Division and B&A services were eliminated or reduced, Alcos numbered between about 8247 and 8279 were assigned.

There are many many photos out there that will back this up and it also has been mentioned in articles about the Harlem in the Central Headlight. And, having grown up in north White Plains, I watched it happen with my own eyes.

Charlie Smith who was then in Central's Mechanical Department as an equipment engineer (later Locomotive Supervisor-System) told me the switch was made because the first group had steam generators that were both hard to maintain and hard to start. The second group of Alcos had heaters that were easier to work with and preferred by crews.

The heaters were Elesco and Worthington though don't ask me which was which.

Let me repeat my question:

"What I'm wondering is: did this passenger dieselization happen in a short period --- like, over weeks or a month --- or was there a period of months in which steam and the new RS-3s shared the service?"

I'm getting some good stories here but nobody's addressing my question. And Tommy, since you grew up in North White Plains I bet you know

You might not get a true answer to this question but I suspect it occurred over a period of months. The Put took two or three months and indeed most parts of the Central were not dieseilzed overnight. Probably the fastest single line to go from steam to diesel operation was the New Haven's Berkshire, a delivery of 10 RS-2's from Alco/GE in late 1947 and early 1948 and it was all over for steam. Of course the Harlem was a much bigger operation between North White Plains and Chatham than the Berkshire was between Danbury and Pittsfield. The book "The Coming of the New York and Harlem" by Grogan might shed some light on this as well, Maybe I'll have an excuse to dig that book out and re-read it.
Noel Weaver

Tom sorry I was responding to the circumstance (the reassignment of diesel power) that I do know. Sorry I can't say as I really do know the time frame for steam replacement.

I kind of lean towards a quick resolution. Whether that would be a couple months, couple weeks or sooner I don't know. In a New York Times news article I read, the Harlem Division Supt. Joseph Clarkhuff said seventeen diesels were taking over for twenty-six steamers. This was published Sept. 12, 1952 upon the occasion of the last steam run the day before.

In the article there's a photo of the last steam locomotive backing across the turntable at North White. The engine is 4549 a Pacific, and idling nearby is Alco 8337.

Noel Weaver wrote:You might not get a true answer to this question but I suspect it occurred over a period of months. The Put took two or three months and indeed most parts of the Central were not dieseilzed overnight. Probably the fastest single line to go from steam to diesel operation was the New Haven's Berkshire, a delivery of 10 RS-2's from Alco/GE in late 1947 and early 1948 and it was all over for steam. Of course the Harlem was a much bigger operation between North White Plains and Chatham than the Berkshire was between Danbury and Pittsfield. The book "The Coming of the New York and Harlem" by Grogan might shed some light on this as well, Maybe I'll have an excuse to dig that book out and re-read it.
Noel Weaver

I flipped through Grogan's book and found two "last steam run" pictures; Pacific 4549 with RS-3 8336 in NWP (page 70) and Hudson 5474 with #8324 in Chatham (page 270). These RS-3s, along with #8337 mentioned in Tommy's post, were class DRSP-6g, built in May 1952 (a total of 23 units made up subclass "g", numbers 8320 to 8342, per Edson's NYCS Diesel Locomotives). If we assume that they made it onto the property by June, then they ran along side the last steam engines for at least 90+/- days.

Bill

bill8106 wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:You might not get a true answer to this question but I suspect it occurred over a period of months. The Put took two or three months and indeed most parts of the Central were not dieseilzed overnight. Probably the fastest single line to go from steam to diesel operation was the New Haven's Berkshire, a delivery of 10 RS-2's from Alco/GE in late 1947 and early 1948 and it was all over for steam. Of course the Harlem was a much bigger operation between North White Plains and Chatham than the Berkshire was between Danbury and Pittsfield. The book "The Coming of the New York and Harlem" by Grogan might shed some light on this as well, Maybe I'll have an excuse to dig that book out and re-read it.
Noel Weaver

I flipped through Grogan's book and found two "last steam run" pictures; Pacific 4549 with RS-3 8336 in NWP (page 70) and Hudson 5474 with #8324 in Chatham (page 270). These RS-3s, along with #8337 mentioned in Tommy's post, were class DRSP-6g, built in May 1952 (a total of 23 units made up subclass "g", numbers 8320 to 8342, per Edson's NYCS Diesel Locomotives). If we assume that they made it onto the property by June, then they ran along side the last steam engines for at least 90+/- days.

Bill

This sounds very reasonable to me also.
Noel Weaver

Interesting --- thanks to both of you for your input!

I have Grogan's book, and the photo of 4549 at the NWP engine terminal is what prompted me to ask the question in the first place.

BTW, the dates on the Put as I understand them were: first diesel [Lima] entered service 7/15/51, last steam run 9/29/51 --- so over there, steam and diesel co-existed for 10 or 11 weeks.

I have mentioned this on this forum before: I have a warm fondness for Harlem steam as it the ONLY steam I ever saw in "regular" live [i.e., non fantrip] service. I grew up across the state line from Brewster in Danbury, CT --- and the New Haven had dieselized Danbury very early --- the beginning of 1948, at which point I was 2 1/2 and still kicking the slats out of my playpen, not watching trains!!! So, I missed steam there. Bu, when I was about 6, in 1951, my dad took me over to Brewster to watch Harlem steam, Which I remember like it was yesterday,