• CSX to acquire Pan Am Railways

  • Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.
Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.

Moderator: MEC407

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Messrs. Newpy and Tosh, thank you for your immediate inputs. So CN has access to any industry - including the docks - wherever located within Saint John and that the Irving road switches, without prejudice, for everyone.

Mr. Newpy, I guess I must acknowledge that times have changed since I "pulled the pin" during Dec 1981 (I actually worked one day during January 1982 to qualify for four weeks vacation - and it was a productive day as I recall). "Back in my day", the Conductor had Waybills for each loaded car in his train as well as instructions for each MTY consigned to "Agent, Wherever".
  by roberttosh
 
Correct on the access at SJ. The only customer that may be outside of that agreement is the Potash export terminal which I think CP has been blocked from using.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Tosh, on whose rails is that Potash terminal actually located?

If it's on the Irving road (can't its alphabet soup straight), could such represent a traffic source for Chessie?
  by roberttosh
 
The Potash terminal is on the East side (former CN). I don't know the reason why, but have heard that CP has been trying unsuccessfully for some time to gain access. Others may be able to provide more details. Not sure that CSX originates a lot of Potash and if they do it would almost certainly go through somewhere like Baltimore, Tampa, Mobile, etc, which have much better access to their core system and are directly served.
  by CN9634
 
Previous suitors (CDAC and MMA) have both tried to run potash trains using Interswitching laws in Canada (similar to proposed Reciprocal switching in the US) and no-go each time. We'll see if that changes now with CP and a robust Canpotex lobby. I remember as a kid in Saint John seeing the CN side, it was a busy place then and now the only difference being the power of course. Rumor had it for a while that CN was going to take back their operation in East Saint John which is contracted to Irving for switching operations.

Unless something has changed recently, NBSR has been structured like a terminal RR even though they operate quite a few more miles than most terminals outfits do. That means that basically all their interchange partners have haulage rights established per whatever tariff they have published for that commodity and NBSR will just take whatever traffic comes their way. Pan Am, CMQ/MMA/CDAC and CN have historically been able to quote moves directly to customers on NBSR lines as such.

Now with CP and CSX coming to town, that'll be a big bonus for those lines scoring business and CN will likely suffer with their additional easterly out of route miles from SJ. CN's only big advantage is the aforementioned potash terminal is on the east side locked away from competitors on their trackage, and they have destination service areas in particular for paper & pulp receivers.

CN has been bringing a good bit of Irving traffic to Montreal to handoff to CSX, this is the same traffic that ST once competed for in the 'Blue Nose' to "quickly" make the connection to CSX (or NS)... obviously now you'll have a path of least resistance directly to CSX, so I suspect there will be a good bit of traffic that shifts early on.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
CN9634 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:34 am CN has been bringing a good bit of Irving traffic to Montreal to handoff to CSX, this is the same traffic that ST once competed for in the 'Blue Nose' to "quickly" make the connection to CSX (or NS)... obviously now you'll have a path of least resistance directly to CSX, so I suspect there will be a good bit of traffic that shifts early on.
Mr. CN9634, I need to be enlightened; the m/v Blue Nose never handled railcars (unlike the C&O Lake Michigan ferries that were laid down during same era) so please enlighten me regarding that reference.

Yes, CSX, by grace of the NYC (one-time Adirondack RR), has a physical interchange at Montreal to the Water Level Route at now Syracuse (that once at Utica I think now belongs to a Short Line), but for traffic consigned to the Midwest, talk about a circuitous routing!!!!

Now if CN really wanted to play "grabby grabby; it's mine", they could handle such on their own rails to Chicago - and even to the Gulf.
  by Shortline614
 
Based on what i've read, CN by far has the most to loose when CSX comes to Saint John.

CN has been the dominant carrier in and out of Saint John for the past 25 years, not because they have the best route, but because the CP-MMA/CMQ-EMRY/NBSR and CSX/NS-GTI/PAR-EMRY/NBSR routings involved far to many carriers to be viable. (Talk about alphabet route soup!)

CN's only real advantage will be ownership of the potash terminal on the east side of town. CP though ownership of the CMQ and Irving Road haulage rights has the shortest and fastest route to and from the rest of Canada. CSX will access to to the origin point via Irving Road haulage rights and a significant number of destination points.

Now if the Irving Roads weren't one big switching and terminal railroad, the equation would be different, but the fact that every major railroad has equal indirect access to almost all of Saint John's shippers, we should be seeing some real competition here.

It seems like CN leased some track to the Irving Roads in Saint John? What customers does it serve? If CN does end up loosing significant amounts of traffic, could they take it back to stem the tide? Or does reciprocal switching make it a moot point?
  by roberttosh
 
There is no question that both CN and CP are going to see a significant diversion of traffic off the Irving roads to CSX. A very large chunk of the paper, lumber and chemical traffic that both handle ends up in CSX territory where they are going to be the odd man out no matter what. They'll have a much better chance of holding onto NS destined traffic, but even a lot of that will be susceptible switching (i.e. shared asset), re-routing, transloading, etc. CN's biggest move out of Saint John is Butane coming out of the Irving refinery. Somewhere in the vicinity of 5-6,000 cars per year, with a big chunk of it ending up down in the Gulf area, I believe on the BNSF. CN will do everything in its' power to hang on to that business as the loss of it would put a serious dent into their Saint John traffic base. I'm not sure how much CBR is currently going into Irving, but it's safe to say that CSX has their eye on that business as well.
  by Cowford
 
CN9634 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:34 am Previous suitors (CDAC and MMA) have both tried to run potash trains using Interswitching laws in Canada (similar to proposed Reciprocal switching in the US) and no-go each time. We'll see if that changes now with CP and a robust Canpotex lobby.
The question: Why? Canadian interswitching rules are pretty cut-and-dried.
  by CN9634
 
You're asking the wrong guy that question about the why but back in early 2000s a Potash train originating on CP made it to Farnham on CDAC, ultimately being refused by NBSR so it never made it across and was re-interchanged at Montreal. CMQ also thought they had a shot so far as to fly folks out to check out BNSF stored power with DPU capability. Needless to say that one didn't pan out either... last we knew Canpotex was trying the legal route almost 4 years ago now-- https://sencanada.ca/content/sen/commit ... rief_e.pdf

Blue Nose was a marketing initiative by Pan Am to move traffic out of Atlantic Canada to CSX. In tandem, CSX had a "Maine Line Chicago" effort which essentially was the POSE/SEPO with CSX power, as a 24 hour service from Portland, ME to Selkirk, with Pan Am connecting 'anything within Maine' also in 24 hours. That basically meant you could go from Mattawamkeag to Selkirk in 48 hours with onward connections wherever. Like all things Pan Am, they did a great job getting it up and running, but didn't invest in the sustainability of it. The tracks on the Keag line of course literally disintegrated and the rest is history.
  by roberttosh
 
Yup, they had a pretty good thing going for a while there with the POSJ/SJPO runs. Now with direct CSX pricing, upgraded track (286K), improved service and equipment supply, CSX will be in an even better position to grow the business.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:31 am Mr. CN9634, I need to be enlightened; the m/v Blue Nose never handled railcars (unlike the C&O Lake Michigan ferries that were laid down during same era) so please enlighten me regarding that reference.
CN9634 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:02 pm Blue Nose was a marketing initiative by Pan Am to move traffic out of Atlantic Canada to CSX.
I see, said the blind man :-D
  by Cosakita18
 
Regarding Potash / grain, the prospect of building bulk export facilities at Searsport was something that came up frequently when CP acquired CMQ. CP getting grain and potash east of Thunder Bay would be big money for them, but might that be something CSX has their eye on as well? To my knowledge CSX doesn't have access to any tidewater grain / bulk terminals north of Chesapeake, VA.
  by F74265A
 
Would csx need bulk terminals north of Baltimore or Norfolk? They would not have access in any event to any yet to materialize bulk commodity export facility at searsport. Searsport seems to have been forgotten post cp acquisition
  by newpylong
 
Not tidewater but they have access to the Port of Albany which moves quite a bit of product for its size.
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