CSS/Amtrak crossing in MC

Lately I've been delayed a few times on a westbound South Shore train because the Amtrak crossing was red. The train contacted the dispatcher, who contacted Amtrak, and permission to proceed was granted. What gives? It's not like the South Shore traffic is a surprise. And couldn't they contact Amtrak ten minutes before, so the crossing is ready?

Tadman wrote:Lately I've been delayed a few times on a westbound South Shore train because the Amtrak crossing was red. The train contacted the dispatcher, who contacted Amtrak, and permission to proceed was granted. What gives? It's not like the South Shore traffic is a surprise. And couldn't they contact Amtrak ten minutes before, so the crossing is ready?

There are a few things at work at 10th Street. When I was in Ops at NICTD, we reconfigured the schedule to attempt to keep South Shore trains off the crossing at the times that Amtrak trains are on the approach (previous schedules were not closely coordinated, and in fact there were several "direct hits" in the schedules before the change).

Now, if Amtrak trains are running late, Amtrak train directors will absolutely hold the South Shore signals at Stop to allow the Amtrak trains to pass. The interlocking control logic was configured during the CTC installation a few years back to give Amtrak Train Directors absolute control over the signals there; this is due to the fact that Amtrak is the superior railroad at the crossing - this goes back to Michigan Central / CSS days. NICTD dispatchers request a route through the crossing just as they request routes at all interlockings, through the CTC system, and it will clear as long as Amtrak doesn't have a route pulled up or a block on the interlocking; if the signal is pulled up for the Amtrak move, the NICTD dispatcher cannot "knock it down", even if there is no train in the approach circuit on Amtrak. Amtrak, on the other hand, *can* knock down a proceed signal on NICTD as long as there is no South Shore train in the approach.

I'm in no way accusing the Amtrak train directors as a whole in any way of mischief, but there were times when Amtrak would have the signal pulled up WAY ahead of the Amtrak train's passing time, and refuse to take it down to allow a South Shore train to pass, even when called by phone by the NICTD dispatcher. There were also times when the signal was pulled up for an Amtrak move, the NICTD dispatcher called the Amtrak Train Director's office, and there was no answer for several minutes.

So, NICTD is in an untenable situation at the 10th Street crossing - Amtrak is the superior railroad by history and by interlocking vital logic, and if the Amtrak TD decides to pull up their signal or place a block on the interlocking, NICTD doesn't move.

Now, in the situation you described, it may have been that the Amtrak TD had a "block" up on the interlocking in order to allow some work to be done within its limits. The TD can give the NICTD dispatcher permission to move a train through against a Stop signal after he or she had checked with the Employee in Charge that all workers and equipment are in the clear.

On Amtrak's side of things, there is an approximately 8 minute signal "grind out" time for their signals if they are knocked down by the Train Director. Given this, Amtrak's trains will usually clear before that time is up, so it's good to keep at least one of the trains moving on clear signals. (Little solace for NICTD passengers, I realize).

The ideal solution here is better communication between Train Directors and South Shore dispatchers before signals are lined up if either train is off schedule.

Tadman wrote:Lately I've been delayed a few times on a westbound South Shore train because the Amtrak crossing was red. The train contacted the dispatcher, who contacted Amtrak, and permission to proceed was granted. What gives? It's not like the South Shore traffic is a surprise. And couldn't they contact Amtrak ten minutes before, so the crossing is ready?

NICTD is giving Amtrak at least 10 minutes now. Even if the NICTD dispatcher "forgot" and didn't line up the westbound until it was scheduled to depart Shops it would be 10 minutes before it got to 10th St. Clearing 10th St when the Westbound is at shops is a 10 minute warning. When a train leaves Shops (CP 32.2) and sees clear ... passing 330 at approach if 10th St isn't clear with the next signal being 10th St (CP 34.5).

Once the train has taken the clear at 330 (School St) Amtrak should be locked out as jb9152 noted. The same would apply for an eastbound that has taken a clear at CP 35.2 although the time to travel from CP 35.2 to 34.5 is less than CP 32.2 to 34.5. (Is CP 32.2 to 330 or the track between CP 36.0 and CP 35.2 considered part of the approach circuit that locks out Amtrak dropping a cleared route? It would be bad to watch a clear 330 drop to approach after crossing Carroll Ave or to round the curve approaching Sheridan Ave and watch that clear turn to approach.)

I can see where Amtrak would be frustrated by NICTD blocking "their railroad" for 10 minutes while a train travels the ~2 miles from Shops (including a station stop at 11th St). It is also easy for a dispatcher (thinking Amtrak's) to clear their track as far in advance as they can so the can move on to other trains. His responsibility is based on him getting his trains through ... not NICTD's. (It reminds me of the old stories of Kensington Interlocking where the IC trains getting an approach or being stopped! for a "Gary Train" - especially if the IC train was a passenger train like the Panama Limited - would result in the interlocking operator getting an unpleasant serious phone call from a superior's superior.)

I don't see this getting better.

I don't see this getting better.

Has anyone on here had a CURRENT problem riding on the South Shore with this? If we're talking stories from months or years ago, that's "water under the bridge". I do know for a fact that Amtrak management does not want Train Directors to cause undue delays on South Shore trains, but not at the expense of Amtrak's own operations.

Also, for those keeping count, there are only 8 Amtrak trains and two local freight movements traveling over the interlocking on a normal day.

(Please understand that I need to be "careful" with information provided to this forum, given that I am employed by an entity being discussed.)

Tad can clarify when "Lately" has been for him ... but I took it as very recent, not months or years ago.
I'm not close enough to Michigan City to get a good signal every day, but occasionally I'll hear the NICTD dispatchers talk about getting a line up on their radio.

The issue I don't see getting better is due to Amtrak increasing speeds on the corridor ... I expect more early route set up and more of a desire to make sure their trains see clear. Also even with the preferred NICTD re-route in Michigan City, the Amtrak diamond will continue to exist.

Hopefully Tad has just been unlucky lately.

The last time I got delayed at CP 10th Street (as I call it lol) was last August, and it was about 10-15 minutes.

AMTKHawkeye wrote:

I don't see this getting better.

Has anyone on here had a CURRENT problem riding on the South Shore with this? If we're talking stories from months or years ago, that's "water under the bridge". I do know for a fact that Amtrak management does not want Train Directors to cause undue delays on South Shore trains, but not at the expense of Amtrak's own operations.

Also, for those keeping count, there are only 8 Amtrak trains and two local freight movements traveling over the interlocking on a normal day.

(Please understand that I need to be "careful" with information provided to this forum, given that I am employed by an entity being discussed.)

I can confirm that the current Amtrak management of the Central Division is VERY good, and that they are VERY focused on working together with NICTD to minimize delays to both railroads.

The noticeable delays have been 10-15 minutes on Sunday evening inbounds around 5:40p - we depart 11th and continue to the signal and wait. It's been fairly recent. You can hear the chatter on the crew radios where they call dispatch, and dispatch calls back that Amtrak has OK'd things, and then we wait for the timeout and cross. Normally I totally understand that the first railroad to a crossing gets control/priority, but with both as timetabled passenger carriers and one in particular (Amtrak) known for low volume and poor timekeeping, you figured there would be a way to make some type of agreement. Guess not...

Tadman wrote:The noticeable delays have been 10-15 minutes on Sunday evening inbounds around 5:40p - we depart 11th and continue to the signal and wait. It's been fairly recent. You can hear the chatter on the crew radios where they call dispatch, and dispatch calls back that Amtrak has OK'd things, and then we wait for the timeout and cross. Normally I totally understand that the first railroad to a crossing gets control/priority, but with both as timetabled passenger carriers and one in particular (Amtrak) known for low volume and poor timekeeping, you figured there would be a way to make some type of agreement. Guess not...

I wonder if the Amtrak TD is accidentally fleeting the signals from 364?

Amtrak 364 should clear well before SS 508 (before 508 reaches Hudson Lake). Amtrak 354 isn't scheduled at Michigan City until 7:03pm ... which could conflict with SS 610 leaving Shops at 7:10pm if 354 is running late. Both trains would be situations where NICTD could not request the route too early as Amtrak would not be clear yet.

When NICTD builds their new line next to 11th St it will move the approach signal for CP 34.5 closer to CP 34.5 (placing it at the west end of the new Michigan City station about a half mile away instead of at 33.0). The closer signal and faster track speeds will get NICTD out of Amtrak's way quicker.


When the NICTD dispatcher calls Amtrak to have them tear down the route blocking 10th St does the train have to be waiting at the diamond or can it be anywhere in the approach segment? It would be nice if the time the train is taking to get from Carroll Ave to 10th St could be used as the time out instead of having the train parked at the west end of 11th St as Tad has noted.

From the January 28th, 2011, NICTD Board Meeting minutes (released today):

Amtrak Interference
Mr. Hanas said that Amtrak has 8 high speed trains a day in and out of Michigan. Amtrak crosses South Shore tracks on the west side of Michigan City. Amtrak is setting the signal before they arrive in Michigan City preventing our train from crossing over Amtrak at 10th Street. Delays while waiting for Amtrak trains are not uncommon at this location.