• CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operations

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey

Moderator: David

  by CharlieL
You miss my point. It's the local driving community in the Whitings area which concerns me - -

They would need a runaround or a loop, a short section of track wouldn't be long enough, considering a fairly long train.
  by Bracdude181
Push pull would be alright but sand is a very dense and heavy material. I’ve heard they wanted 20-30 cars per trip running twice a week. Having two engines for the leg from Woodmansie to Lakehurst would really help.

The switch was put in a few years back. Probably between 2015 and 2017 when NJSL made a huge push to get the line open and did tons of work.
  by JohnFromJersey
I remember those days, 2016 was the prime time of their efforts to upgrade the line, it was all the talk on here and the Southern Secondary thread.

I will say, they continue to maintain and do work on this line, so there's definitely something going on here - if there wasn't, it would have been all overgrown again by now.
CharlieL wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:07 pm You miss my point. It's the local driving community in the Whitings area which concerns me - -
Can't be much worse than Lakewood.
  by AceMacSD
Ken W2KB wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:01 pm
AceMacSD wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:36 pm How long has this sand train rumor been going on?
Since 2009 as reported in Railway Age publication based upon Clayton's / NJSL's representations in the STB filings seeking common carrier status for NJSL to handle Clayton's shipments: "The 13 miles of right-of-way, owned by the Clayton Sand Co., will be rehabilitated to allow access to the company’s sand mine in Woodmansie, located in the state’s Pine Barrens region. . . Clayton acquired it from Conrail in 1985 for use as a private industry track." https://www.railwayage.com/news/new-sho ... ew-jersey/
So this was officially published 13 years ago. I recall hearing the guys talking about this fantasy for much longer than 13 years.

Even if they were to load materials on the main as mentioned, there's still no sign of any loading area being cleared on Google nor is there any loading machinery in place to load onto the main.
  by CJPat
The 16 year "general" history of the Woodmansie connection.

We reported back, in 2006, that Clayton had contracted to clear the overgrown 13 mile stretch of track and reported regularly on it's progress. It was our general understanding that Clayton was clearing the line because they anticipated providing the sand for THE Tunnel construction contract at the time.

When Chris Christie was elected Governor, he cancelled NJ's participation in the contract (originally set up under Gov Corzine) because of the lousy financial deal it established. At that time, the cost was established under an Engineer's Estimate and included 3 participants, The Fed Gov't, State of NY and State of NJ. After deducting the Fed Gov't share, NJ & NY agreed to split the remaining share with the caveat that NJ pay for ALL cost overuns and Change Orders. The project already got into cost overun before the project came out of Engineering Design. Who knows how much more NJ would have been on the hook for before this multi-year project was complete. Also, as a reminder, these tunnels were to be built as the "Tunnel to Nowhere" as the design called for the tunnels to be terminated under a different location other than Penn Station (Macy's?) which most of the public considered it to be, shalll we say, less than convenient and didn't connect directly with the subway routes like at Penn. Not considered to be "optimal".

With the tunnel contract cancelled, Clayton did not persue any further significant improvements, although the crossings were refurbished at Cnty Rt 539, Cnty 530 (Lacey Rd), and Wranglebrook Rd. Further project work was later completed in Lakehurst to include rebuilding the timber trestle. Of course, during that period, Conrail cut the Southern up in Lakewood and pulled track leading onto the TRIT. Clayton did establish the service contract with NJSL.

Hard to call the Sand trains a fantasy after the expenditure of this much money, however, I believe we can recognize that there isn' enough bulk traffic/customers outside of the Hudson Crossing Construction contract to allow the line to operate profitably. Previous Shipments were made for other significant public contracts, like the Meadowlands Sports Complex.

I believe (opinion) that Clayton has put in minimal maintenance to keep the line clear on the hopes a tunnel contract would be redeveloped (it did) and whether he has a shot as a supplier (still to be seen). I would guess that if he can open a regular supply contract for a multi-year project, that may give him an opportunity to possibly to garner other potential customers. Sand comes in many types. Woodmansie sand is of excellent construction grade. Other sand pits, like the former Heritage Minerals & Glidden provided color extracts while others provided sand for the former glass production markets (like Anchor glass) that were in NJ before cheap plastic bottles overtook the market and drove the manufacturers away.

And that nonsense in Jersey City, that NS1 alluded to, was just part of those specific individuals (excluding Clayton and the NJSL) to establish themselves as a real railroad. Those "people" had attempted that in several locations like in the Sommervile area, outside of Baltimore, and a few other locations Ino longer remember. There had been numerous discussions within this bulletin board, back in the day. That little tidbit has no place of relevance in this topic.
  by Bracdude181
So THATS why I was hearing Chris Christie wanted nothing to do with the project. Honestly not surprised he didn’t want to fund the project. Thanks for the info on that.

I’ve asked/looked around and determined NJSL/CMSL have no affiliation with those two and whatever they did.
  by CJPat
I don't think there was anyone on either side of the political isle that didn't acknowledge the need to expand the two tunnel access to New York back then. Even the alternative thinking involved that the new tunnels would require an entirely new station was only slowing down the approach. We knew it would hurt to cancel the contract.

But the absolutely Bonkers idea that Corzine accepted from NY that any and all additional costs would be picked up solely by NJ was the stone killer. The tunnel was expected to be expensive, no doubt about that, and it would take a hefty chunk out of NJ to pay for it. But Corzine accepted the idea of us paying for every cost overun over the original budget was only because he wanted to be able he could claim a major transportation project success before he would plan on running for president. He was also shilling kickbacks to his cronies based on percentages of costs (personal assessment only-This is NJ, the odds are strongly with me in this assumption).

Corzine couldn't give two rats about the budget cost to NJ taxpayers since he was going to bail and run for Federal office (US President). Christie was voted in because both Republicans and a very large quantity of Democrats agreed that Corzine was quickly making NJ overwhelmingly unaffordable (in this strongly blue state, a republican doesn't get voted in unless the Democrats agree with him-shows how bad Corzine really was). When Christie fouled things up at the end of his second term, the Democrats decided to put Murphy in.
  by Bracdude181
Earlier this morning, a weed sprayer hi rail truck ran from Lakehurst all the way to Clayton. I heard they were reported clear around 12:45…
  by CJPat
You heard them on your scanner? Surprised they would use those channels. That chunk of railroad is completely disconnected for everything else. There would be no conflict possiblity with anything else. The sprayer would typically be a commercial asset. I would have expected them to just call in on their cell phone to their boss to tell them they were complete.
  by Bracdude181
To my knowledge the truck did not use radio comms. If they did I didn’t hear anything cause my scanner was off. Friend saw it leaving Lakehurst and told me. I would’ve posted the location of the truck but there’s no cellular out there and I wanted to make sure there was actually a truck there first. I’ve been told before that they are coming down with MOW equipment only to fly out there and find nothing.

This makes two weed killing operations within a 12 month period. Usually it’s only one. I don’t think we’ll see another this year.
  by CJPat
My bad. Your use of the phrase "I heard they were reported clear around 12:45…" sounded like you heard a radio report. Sorry for my misunderstanding, I didn't realize you were just relayinging some info from your friend.
  by Bracdude181
It’s alright. I might go back in a few days to see if the weeds are dead. They were pretty thorough with the spraying and even got out to spray an area or two with the spray gun attached to the truck.
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