CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operations

@pdtrains I didn’t intend for my question to come across as “why did C&D get the FIT and SOUS.” I meant to say why, after so many years of trying to get rid of this line, did they not do so the first chance they got and willingly continue to operate lines they want absolutely nothing to do with for YEARS after someone actually put a formal proposal forward to take the lines off their hands?

But then what was Conrails plan gonna be if C&D or someone else never came along? Keep the SOUS and FIT in limbo and do practically no maintenance, and have a worse version of the Farmingdale derailment six months later?

Ken W2KB wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:53 pm

JohnFromJersey wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:34 pm Any news on whats going with NJSL in Ocean County?

None that I could find, the latest relevant info with the STB, back in 2009 states: "Accordingly, on August 5, 2009, Clayton entered into an Operating Agreement with NJSL granting it the exclusive right to provide common carrier railroad service over this line for a 10 year period,"

It thus appears that the contract between Clayton and NJSL expired by its own terms about 3 years ago. It may well be that should Clayton decide that it needs rail service it will seek an operator that makes the most sense from a business standpoint. Time will tell, I suppose. https://dcms-external.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... 225871.pdf

Ken,
Would the renewal of a contract between Clayton and NJSL need to be reported to the STB?

CMSL/NJSL did not end up with the lease for the Southern Secondary for a number of reasons. None of them are allowed to be discussed on this page.

The idea of sand trains is a fantasy, with no basis in fact, dreamt up by two individuals whose intent was to use the regulatory preemption railroads have due to federal regulations, in their attempt to take over an unused rail line far away from the Southern. Those parties made their assertion as the reason for their operation of a disconnected line that had no customers for a significant number of years. It should be noted that as part of the application made to the STB, attorneys for Clayton filed a comment with the board categorically denying any suggestion of operation of sand trains.

I lived on Maxim Road in Howell for ten years and saw many sand trains in the '80s. Clayton owns the track from Lakehurst to Woodmansie and maintains the track for only one reason: SAND!

@NS1 With all due respect, are you absolutely certain that Seashore Lines or any individuals associated with them had a hand in this faraway line you speak of, and not someone else? I might know which line you speak of. It’s in Jersey City right?

Im also unaware of any comment to the STB from Clayton saying the sand trains are only a suggestion. Unless there’s something nefarious going on with this line that I’m unaware of, it seems very strange for NJSL and Clayton to pour millions of their own money and grant money into this track for it to just sit there. That, and Clayton pays taxes to have this line. In the ballpark of 13k a year last I heard.

I’ll try to look into the STB thing when I can. Still pretty busy on my end.

R&DB wrote: I lived on Maxim Road in Howell for ten years and saw many sand trains in the '80s. Clayton owns the track from Lakehurst to Woodmansie and maintains the track for only one reason: SAND!

Back then we had sand trains coming out of Glidden, not Clayton. As NS1 said this talk of sand trains is a fantasy. Looking at Google Earth the line is clear from Lakehurst to Woodmansie but the loop track at the Woodmansie quarry is still not visible. If these sand trains were going to be coming out of the Woodmansie quarry, why hasn't Clayton had the trackage within their property rebuilt? If you think they are going to operate over the existing track, why has it not been cleared?
How long has this sand train rumor been going on?

@AceMacSD I’ve heard they’ll load the trains on the main to start off, and they’ll rebuild the loop later if there’s enough traffic to justify it.

The sand trains have been talked about on and off here since at least 2004 I believe.

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:39 pm @NS1 With all due respect, are you absolutely certain that Seashore Lines or any individuals associated with them had a hand in this faraway line you speak of, and not someone else? I might know which line you speak of. It’s in Jersey City right?

I did not state, nor imply, that any party affiliated with NJSL or CMSL was involved in any aspect of the then proposed transaction in Jersey City. While I am not sure of the current status of the subject line, the matter was before the STB more than 10 years ago.

Im also unaware of any comment to the STB from Clayton saying the sand trains are only a suggestion. Unless there’s something nefarious going on with this line that I’m unaware of, it seems very strange for NJSL and Clayton to pour millions of their own money and grant money into this track for it to just sit there. That, and Clayton pays taxes to have this line. In the ballpark of 13k a year last I heard.

I've posted a link more than once, several times in response to comments you have made. I'll post it below again.


https://dcms-external.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... 225897.PDF

Interesting to see issues between Conrail and NJSL being brought up in a filing. That’s something I’ve heard a lot about…

Looks like Clayton is saying they have no affiliation to the other two you mentioned NS1.

Will look into the relationship between CSAO, NJSL, and Clayton further once things calm down on my end.

Thanks for the info NS1.

CR7876 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:59 pm Ken,
Would the renewal of a contract between Clayton and NJSL need to be reported to the STB?

I do not know, it would seem logical, but may not be required. I do believe that any substitution of a different carrier would require STB approval to remove the incumbant's common carrier status and establish that status with the replacement.

I notice in that attachment Clayton says nothing about not having any more sand trains; they only disavowed any attachment to the people trying to get control of that short segment of track. Also, Mr. Macrie is cc'd, presumably to keep him formally apprised of Clayton's position.

As far as a loop track or runaround at Clayton, should they get a contract for sand, I imagine a loop or runaround could be built very quickly at not a great expense, quickly enough to not eat up the lead time between contract and first delivery.

All that said, I do not expect to see any sand trains from Clayton. There are too many suppliers available and still Amtrak / NJT to deal with.

AceMacSD wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:36 pm How long has this sand train rumor been going on?

Since 2009 as reported in Railway Age publication based upon Clayton's / NJSL's representations in the STB filings seeking common carrier status for NJSL to handle Clayton's shipments: "The 13 miles of right-of-way, owned by the Clayton Sand Co., will be rehabilitated to allow access to the company’s sand mine in Woodmansie, located in the state’s Pine Barrens region. . . Clayton acquired it from Conrail in 1985 for use as a private industry track." https://www.railwayage.com/news/new-sho ... ew-jersey/

If Clayton were to get sand, they would just load it on the mainline. Clayton's facility would be the end of the "mainline," so what's the point of putting in a siding/loop when you can just do it on the main?

NS1 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:18 pm CMSL/NJSL did not end up with the lease for the Southern Secondary for a number of reasons. None of them are allowed to be discussed on this page.

Why not? We're all friends here

NS1 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:18 pm The idea of sand trains is a fantasy, with no basis in fact, dreamt up by two individuals whose intent was to use the regulatory preemption railroads have due to federal regulations, in their attempt to take over an unused rail line far away from the Southern. Those parties made their assertion as the reason for their operation of a disconnected line that had no customers for a significant number of years. It should be noted that as part of the application made to the STB, attorneys for Clayton filed a comment with the board categorically denying any suggestion of operation of sand trains.

Well, the fact that Clayton and NJSL have spent considerable money and time to rehabilitate the section of track, in addition to paying a lot of money in property taxes on said line, is enough of a fact to justify that something is going on here. What else do they have planned? Are they hoping the state is going to reopen to the entire Southern down to Winslow, so they can charge the state/whatever railroad a lot of money to sell that portion of the Southern back to them? It makes no sense for this to be a scam, since Clayton spends a lot of money on this...

Not to mention, this was posted by Ken: https://www.railwayage.com/news/new-sho ... ew-jersey/

CharlieL wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:24 pm All that said, I do not expect to see any sand trains from Clayton. There are too many suppliers available and still Amtrak / NJT to deal with.

That being said, why would Clayton even bother to keep this portion of the line in better shape than the rest of the former Southern Division? As for the Amtrak/NJT issue, once FIT-SOUS is back and reconnected, that issue is almost nil.

Somehow, full or empty, I can't see them pushing a string of cars thru Whitings.

I'm nervous as hell just driving thru there.

@CharlieL They can run push pull as long as they have 2015 and 2661 down here just fine.

Alternatively there’s a new switch at Clayton. Add just enough track for an engine to park on it without fouling the main. That way, they can come up with both engines in front, turn around, and go back with both engines at the other end pulling the train.

As for shoving through Whiting, the issue would be at Diamond Rd cause it’s a passive crossing. The traffic lights on Lacey Rd turn red when the train has to cross. Truthfully though, I wouldn’t want to shove a train for 13 miles either.