• CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operations

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey

Moderator: David

  by Ken W2KB
Bracdude181 wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:26 pm Just curious, when it comes to the railroad, do railroad police have jurisdiction over normal police? Many, MANY years ago both railroad and regular police showed up when either SA31 or SA35 (it was near the time SA35 got abolished) broke down at Route 88 in Lakewood and ended up blocking the road. Lakewood police showed up and demanded the crew move the train but they weren’t able to because their brakes locked up. One officer climbed onto the engine to yell at the crew but was told off (and possibly arrested) when NS Police showed up.
NJ State, County and Municipal police officers have NJ statewide jurisdiction with the exception of federal enclaves and foreign nation diplomatic facilities. From the way the railroad police statute reads, it appears that the railroad police have jurisdiction in the counties and municipalities in which their employing railroad has property. In any event, the jurisdiction and powers at the scene of a railroad incident would be co-equal as between railroad and State, County or Municipal police. I seem to recall also that NY-NJ Port Authority police have jurisdiction in both states of NJ and NY per the Port Authority enabling statutes.
  by Bracdude181
Heard from a friend that the Cape May Branch has been cleared of all vegetation from Woodbine to Cold Spring and that most railcar storage has been moved to the BEES south of Tuckahoe…
  by Ken W2KB
JohnFromJersey wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:34 pm Any news on whats going with NJSL in Ocean County?
None that I could find, the latest relevant info with the STB, back in 2009 states: "Accordingly, on August 5, 2009, Clayton entered into an Operating Agreement with NJSL granting it the exclusive right to provide common carrier railroad service over this line for a 10 year period,"

It thus appears that the contract between Clayton and NJSL expired by its own terms about 3 years ago. It may well be that should Clayton decide that it needs rail service it will seek an operator that makes the most sense from a business standpoint. Time will tell, I suppose. https://dcms-external.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... 225871.pdf
  by Bracdude181
To my knowledge the lease was renewed in 2019. Unless there’s supposed to be another filing for that?

NJSL was supposed to get the Southern Secondary and Freehold Industrial (and I believe would’ve connected them later on) in 2015 but Conrail turned them down.

Why? It was clear that Conrail didn’t want the Southern and NJSL gave them a chance to finally be rid of it like they’ve so desperately wanted. Instead, they continue to operate it for 7 more years and deal with all the problems that occurred along the way? All the derailments, having to fix crossings, the issues in Lakewood, ferrying crews out here to return outlawed trains that sometimes sat for DAYS, etc. Why willing put up with all that? Especially since not every train on the line (under Conrail at least) broke even?

Was NJSL not willing to pay for the lease? Was there a fight between NJSL and Conrail? Or is it a NJT thing? Did NJSL back out? Was there a force majeure somewhere? Or some under-the-table work?

What is the real reason??
Last edited by Bracdude181 on Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by CharlieL
Couild have been for many reasons. For instance, what was NJSL's financial status at that time. What were their previous dealings with conrail and / or NJT like?
  by Bracdude181
They don’t deal with NJT much, they only lease the Cape May Branch from them. I’m not aware of any issues NJT has with them.

No issues with Conrail to my knowledge but they only deal with South Jersey right now. North Jersey is run by different people who may have a different opinion of them than South Jersey…

Don’t know how they are financially at the moment. In 2015 they had enough to do heavy upgrades to the Clayton line. Some of the cash was from grants and Clayton of course but to my knowledge much of the work was paid for out of pocket by Seashore Lines.
  by JohnFromJersey
In regards to NJSL/CMSL, I heard rumors that they owed quite a bit in back taxes to the government. Someone posted the documents related to it on I think this thread a few years ago. I'm not sure if it was a local government or what, but I heard they owed quite a bit and got into a legal spat with the entity. It was sometime between now and 2015, which could explain why maybe NJT did not want CMSL/NJSL taking over CR's contract to operate here. That being said, CR still gave NJSL/CMSL operating rights over the Beesley's Point Secondary, and that's also owned by NJT... Maybe CMSL/NJSL got it all resolved with NJT, but it wasn't before C&D entered the picture for the SOUS and FIT?

AFAIK the 13 miles of track, between Clayton in Woodmansie, and where it meets the official Southern Secondary, is still maintained and in good shape. I'd say it's damn near being able to be good for 25MPH perhaps... Therefore, Clayton still has some interest in rail service, and therefore, NJSL is probably still doing something with Clayton. People have reported seeing hi railers and guys cutting vegetation around the line within the last year or less.

As has been said before on other threads, there are 2 or 3 potential customers for rail delivery of sand, with one of those being able to get said sand right now. Not sure why they haven't. Obviously, Lakehurst to Lakewood is still severed, but it can't be that hard of a fix, especially if you have a large construction company wanting a big contract for regular sand deliveries.

The other two are on the OOS FIT-SOUS section, so I don't think we will see anything from those guys for at least another year, unless C&D/DRRR starts to fix the OOS FIT-SOUS portion from Farmingdale onwards. I wouldn't be shocked if DRRR does that, so they can access two potential customers before the entire thing is complete.

If Clayton's sand is truly being used for the Gateway project/other customers not in this area, then that most likely won't happen until FIT-SOUS is reconnected. I do not think NJT would allow very heavy and long sand trains onto the Coastline via Red Bank, especially since much of the Southern's poor trackage was due to frequent heavy and long sand trains going back and forth on it in the 70's and 80's.
  by Bracdude181
Many of my people have told me Clayton’s sand was intended for Gateway, but I’ve never gotten anything definitive.

Also heard Clayton was looking to bring sand from Woodmansie to Lakewood to supply their concrete plant, and their brick factory when they still ran it. (Cambridge Paving runs it now)

Just curious, does anyone else get tons of conflicting info on what exactly Clayton wanted to do with sand transported by rail in the first place? Cause I sure do!!
  by pdtrains
I think everyone whos been around for a while knows this...but from what ive been told over the years, CMSL/NJSL has always been a hand to mouth operation. I cold be wrong, but i have been lead to believe that they do not have deep cash reserves, and that anything they operate has to be cash flow positive, I dont believe they have they money to do engage in large maintenance projects,
Im not saying they are bad people or have a bad operation...but similar to a lot of excursion lines, they are just making it by, and dont have a big endowment or other source of funds. From what I have seen, their only sources of revenue are their occasional excursion runs, and freight car storage. Having the operations right over the track south of Winslow Jct now, may give them the opportunity to move some revenue freight, and maybe establish some team track services at Tuckahoe or somewhere along the line.(s)

Im just saying all this in response to the "who pick C&D to run the FIT/SOUS/TRIT. " The C&D has a proven track record of getting track fixed and running revenue freight on a reliable schedule. The CMSL/NJSL has up till now at least, basically been a tourist RR operation. Im sure they are good ppl, and its nice that they have preserved some local equipment, and kept the Cape May and Beesley point tracks from being ripped up, but I just dont think they have the resources to spend money on track improvements and rebuilding, without 100% of the work being paid for by someone else...
  by JohnFromJersey
Ken W2KB wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:26 am This is the NJ Upper Court judgment search showing the judgments that remain open, meaning unpaid as of today.
Wow, some of that is going back well over 20 years now. Is there a way to see how much they owe in total?
  by Ken W2KB
JohnFromJersey wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:50 pm Wow, some of that is going back well over 20 years now. Is there a way to see how much they owe in total?
Yes, have to go to the upper court judgment page, search to get the list, and then click each open judgment to see the amount, and then add them all up. https://portal.njcourts.gov/webe40/Judg ... arch.faces
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