Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

  by Jeff Smith
Got a question for you guys about CDOT's equipment pool. What does CDOT own, exactly? Here's my approximation:

Pool Service
-65% of the existing EMU fleet (240-some odd M2/M4/M6, with some lost this last winter)
-100% of any M8's in excess of 300, upon delivery (not sure if NYS agreed to any of the 80 option cars). From what I understand from the executive summary, NY is paying for their share of cars in the out-years of the procurement based on their five year plans, and CT retains title until the cash payment schedule falls back into balance: http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0678.htm
-100% of the 25 M-8 "trailer" cars (again, not sure if NYS agreed to any share of this).
-P32ACDM's (not sure of numbers/split)
-BL20's (again, not sure of numbers/split)
-BL14's (100% MNRR, purchased for ESA)

CDOT alone
?VRE cars (still used on SLE?) including some cab cars. Manual doors?
?Demotored SPV2000's converted to coaches (Shoreliners?) most recently used in NOLA hurrican service. Not sure where they are now.
?Shoreliners (Bombardier version?) for use on SLE
?Ex-Amtrak P40's (still used on SLE?)
?FL9's (I think five?) stored at NH
?GP9's used on SLE?

Additional question:Who owns the shops/yards in CT (Stamford, Danbury, New Haven, not sure what's in W'Bury)?

I use question marks where I'm completely unsure as to number.


  by Jeff Smith
Okay, I found the P32 numbers in another thread from Dutch:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 67&t=72856
DutchRailnut wrote:201 till 227 are MNCR units
228 to 231 are CDOT units
That would be 27 for MNRR, 4 for CDOT. Clearly, not subject to the "pool" split of 65/35, although used in pool service. Curious as to how many are needed in CT branch service to see if split is fair.
  by Jeff Smith
I swear, Dutch is a better source than Wikipedia:
DutchRailnut wrote:Yes the 4 x P32acdm #228 - 231 and 6 x BL20gh # 125 -130 are owned by Connecticut Department of Transportation, so are 2/3th's of M2/4/6 fleet and about 42 Bombardier cars.
The fleet of CDOT is not only painted in CDOT color but assigned seperate sub class numbers.
Their use is in general MNCR pool service.
Ownership is defined by Brass plate on each unit and by blue forms.
http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.ph ... 3&start=15

What I'm really trying to do here is get a roster of CDOT equipment in one thread. Off to the M8 thread.....
  by Jeff Smith
From my own quote of the MTA website on the "singles"

"The 25 single cars will cost about $3.325 million each for a total of about $93 million; Connecticut's share will be $60.5 million and New York's will be $32.6 million. Governor Malloy received approval from the State Bond Commission on July 29, 2011 for the Connecticut share. The MTA Board approved the New York portion of the purchase on July 27, 2011. "

This comes out to roughly 9 cars for MNRR, and 16 for CDOT, without having to split the baby exactly on 65/35 (65% of 25 is 16.25). Looks like an extra $3m in design costs. Otherwise, 93.1m divided by 3.325m would be 28 cars.
  by gmbfly98
Jeff Smith wrote:From my own quote of the MTA website on the "singles"

"The 25 single cars will cost about $3.325 million each for a total of about $93 million; Connecticut's share will be $60.5 million and New York's will be $32.6 million. Governor Malloy received approval from the State Bond Commission on July 29, 2011 for the Connecticut share. The MTA Board approved the New York portion of the purchase on July 27, 2011. "

This comes out to roughly 9 cars for MNRR, and 16 for CDOT, without having to split the baby exactly on 65/35 (65% of 25 is 16.25). Looks like an extra $3m in design costs. Otherwise, 93.1m divided by 3.325m would be 28 cars.
You've certainly done a good job so far of answering your own question! ;-)
  by shadyjay
CDOT owns the 8 former Amtrak P40s (numbered 833, 834, 836, 838, 840-843, some with Amtrak markings painted out and CT Commuter Rail logos over them), and the 6 GP40-2Hs, #6694-6699. They also own 6 FL9Ms, which are all stored at New Haven. All 33 Ex-VRE Mafersa coaches (and a few cabs) are also owned by CDOT, though I believe some are stored as not all 33 are needed for daily SLE service. The Constitution Liners are also CDOT-owned (ex-SPV2000s) and are stored, most likely also at New Haven). The Bombardier Shoreliners were in SLE service but were transferred to Metro North pool service to add seats to the New Haven Line. According to a SLE article in R&R from 10/93, there were 10 Bombardier cars built for SLE service - 4 of these being cabs, the rest being straight coaches.

I believe the Stamford and New Haven yards and shops are owned by CDOT. The yard on the southern side of the station and west of the main tracks at NHV is Amtrak's yard. Danbury has a layover yard which is most likely CDOT-owned. At Waterbury, the yard there is most likely now owned by Pan-Am Railways - I'm pretty sure Metro North deadheads at the end of the day back to New Haven as there is no layover facility at Waterbury.

Finally, taking the MU-fleet info from a Trains magazine article from 3/96:
Of 242 M2s, 122 owned by MTA, 120 by CDOT (of the 120, 10 set up as bar cars)
Of 54 M-4s, 21 owned by MN, 33 by CDOT
Of 48 M-6s, 18 owned by MN< 30 by CDOT
I'm sure the actual numbers of the fleet has decreased a bit or been altered in the past 15 years

Hope that helps!
  by Jeff Smith
Fly, I was thinking the same thing myself, but then Shady shed light on the whole thing! Appreciate the help!
  by Noel Weaver
The yard at Waterbury is a very sad case of what used to be. I would say there might be three tracks still able to be used. It might be owned by the State of Connecticut, I am not sure about that. It has been a very long time since any equipment laid overnight or crews were based out of Waterbury.
Noel Weaver
  by Kilgore Trout
There is a short siding south of the station (under I-84), I believe that is the only storage space on MN trackage.
  by Jeff Smith
portal.ct.gov/DOT/News-from-the-Connecticut-Department-of-Transportation: Second Survey on Next Generation of CT Rail Cars Completed

The Connecticut Department of Transportation (CTDOT) has completed two public surveys to gain public input for the procurement of the next generation of rail cars for the state’s passenger rail system. Together the surveys generated nearly 1,300 responses and provide CTDOT with a clear vision of amenities to prioritize as the procurement process moves forward.

The first survey was launched in September and received over 700 responses. The survey sought public feedback on key customer amenities for the coach interiors and launched a public lottery to select participants for a Customer Advisory Panel (CAP). This survey concluded in mid-October. Ultimately, ten individuals were selected to serve on the panel, representing a cross section of all rail lines serving the state as well as four advocates representing disability rights organizations, bicyclists, pedestrians and the Connecticut Rail Commuter Council.

Following the first CAP meeting held in late October, CTDOT determined the procurement process would benefit from a follow-up survey seeking focused feedback regarding lighting, Wi-Fi and cellular amenities on rail cars. This survey was launched in late November and received 572 responses through January when the survey was closed.

The results of both surveys reflect input from a customer base with diverse needs and preferences, yet many shared priorities. In the first survey, respondents were asked to rank the importance of the following rail car features: seating quality, restroom access, Wi-Fi availability, latest environmental standards, interior dynamic messaging signs, reading lights, the ability to store bicycles, tray tables, and foot rests. The results showed:

-Respondents indicated that seating quality should be prioritized over any other amenity with 96% of respondents indicating it was at least “somewhat important”.

-Nearly 80% of respondents agreed that it was important that the rail cars have restroom access, met the latest environmental standards, and had reliable cellular service.

-Nearly 10% of the 275 comments left at the end of the survey were related to electrical outlets; specifically, that outlets located near seats be included in rail car design, that every passenger have easy access to an outlet, and that outlets be chosen over USB ports for charging.

The follow-up survey conducted in December and concluded this month focused on three topics – interior lighting, Wi-Fi /internet access and cellular phone service. Results showed:

-Most respondents to the second survey believed the current level of lighting on trains was sufficient and the type of lighting most preferred was neutral or ‘day’ white.

-A significant number of respondents to the second survey left additional comments requesting CTDOT consider dimming interior lighting in the early morning and/or evening.

-Respondents continued to emphasize the importance of reliable cellular service being available on the trains.

-There was no clear consensus on which mode should be given highest priority in the design of new coaches (Wi-Fi availability, 4G or 5G access), reflecting the rapidly evolving field of cellular and internet technology.

Since the launch of the two surveys, Connecticut has partnered with AT&T to expand 5G with small cell installations along the state’s rail lines. The Department is working with AT&T to optimize cellular service to meet riders’ demands; roof-top antennas on the new rail cars will strengthen both 4G and 5G signals inside the train.

This input collected from these surveys will continue to guide the Department as it works with industry experts to design the new rail cars. Going forward, the Department will be conducting additional meetings with the CAP at key stages in the process. CTDOT thanks all the participants that took the time to provide thoughtful feedback on their vision for the future of rail in Connecticut.

TELEPHONE: (860) 594-3062
FAX: (860) 594-3065
WEB SITE: www.ct.gov/dot
  by Backshophoss
Seems like ConnDOT will pull a MBTA bad habit and tweak(customize) the MLV II design beyond the MN specs.
wonder if the final plan is to retire the entire single level fleet of loco pulled cars?
  by DutchRailnut
if the made Ct MLV's different from MN MLV's there would be a problem, cause they run in pool service and are not guaranteed to be used in CT only.
if they really improve to much on them they might be excessively hijacked for Hudson and Harlem use.
  by NH2060
But *will* they be used in pool service? The initial press release put out last year when the surveying began stated that they would be used on the Danbury, Waterbury, SLE and Hartford Line trains. There was even some mention about them being “Connecticut cars”. So it sounds like they will be used exclusively in CT and any CT-GCT services. And in that case i wouldn’t rule out them being single levels.

Now if they are/were doing this surveying in conjunction with the MTA then absolutely it would be a safe bet to assume that the new cars would be pooled.
  by DutchRailnut
yes they will be pool service cars if they run on waterbury and danbury branches, and no there will not be guarantee to be exclusive in CT.
The cars would be serviced in Croton Harmon and no the SLE/springfield cars would not be in same pool.
  by njtmnrrbuff
Yes, I think whatever runs on the Waterbury and Danbury Branch will also operate on the Harlem and Hudson Lines as well as the occasional through train between New Haven and GCT. I know that MNR has been considering ordering multilevels to replace the Shoreliners. As for the Ctrail services(SLE and Hartford Line), don't be surprised if the CDOT sticks with single level coaches. Maybe they will be DMUs or maybe they will operate with a locomotive. I think that the locomotives that are used on Ctrail trains are up there in age and will probably be replaced sooner rather than later. However, I know that CDOT is overhauling their P40s so maybe they will stick around a little longer than we think.