Can you run a big 6 axle unit long Hood forward?

Yes, i know you can run one in reverse, but are you allowed to run one of these units at full track speed long hood forward?

Norfolk Southern has been doing so for years, they even call the long end the front end
with Comfort Cabs it gets a bit harder as your basicly twisting and hanging in pretzel mode or running with mirrors only.

DutchRailnut wrote:Norfolk Southern has been doing so for years, they even call the long end the front end .

Untill recently, NS was ordering all thier loco's, even Dash 8's with the control stands on the left side and the locomotive's forward designation being the long hood. SD40-2's were common as well. While many of these loco's are still used in everyday service on NS, NS no longer orders locomotives this way. Too may complaints from crews both NS and foreign railroads. Basically the safety gained from having the long hood forward for collison protection is lost in that without two alert crew members, visibility is horrible at best.

DutchRailnut wrote:with Comfort Cabs it gets a bit harder as your basicly twisting and hanging in pretzel mode or running with mirrors only.

NS's wide body Dash 9's were built with conventional AAR style stands to allow running long hood or short hood forward. There is a even a speedometer on the rear cab wall. NS does not use the Desktop style stands for this reason. Because of the AAR style stand on their wide body units, there is no issue with having to use mirrors or twisting your body to run. Other then being on the right side vs left when running long hood forward, it's no big deal.

You mean like this?

Yes, Norfolk & Western and Southern were both well known for running ALL their locomotives long-hood forward, the long hood was even officially designated as the front, and the controls were set up that way..

This was a holdover from the steam era, where nearly all steam locomotives had the cab at the rear of the engine, with a long expanse of locomotive out front, which would protect the crew in case of a collision..

Other early diesels on other railroads also had some diesels set up that way, with the long hood as front, such as some early EMD GP's and some Alco RS units..but only N&W and Southern did it with all locos, even into the "second generation" of diesels..N&W and Southern, in addition to running long-hood forward, were also unusual in that they ordered almost all their diesels with a high short hood at the "rear" of the engine..

With the coming of the "widecab" era in the 1990's, Norfolk Southern officially dropped the practice, but many older NS locos can still be seen with their high hoods today..although they are beginning to be phased out.

All three of these locos are running forward:









Waverly, NY, 1986.

Scot

Scot

i was wondering something that maybe some NS guys could answer - do you find that when running LHF, the ride is worse, with more lateral motion?

It just seems when Im running Geeps long hood forward there is much more lateral motion than in the same loco running SHF. However, the speeds Im usually running are well above 60mph, so maybe that is a contributing factor, but it just seems that LHF is a rougher ride........

If you think about it, running long hood forward is not unlike the normal operation of a large steam locomotive.

RedLantern wrote:If you think about it, running long hood forward is not unlike the normal operation of a large steam locomotive.

That is why NW ordered their diesels that way.

Jaap has it right. Visability is limited, and on wide body units, they are an ergonomic nightmare to run backwards.

HoggerKen wrote:Jaap has it right. Visability is limited, and on wide body units, they are an ergonomic nightmare to run backwards.

You cannot really generalize "wide bodies" as many railroads order wide bodies with conventional AAR stands. So ergonomics would be no different then a conventional cab.

NS for example does just that as i mentioned earlier in this thread. The control stand is mounted sideways. So running long hood forward or short hood forward has no impact on ergonomics.

The issue is DESKTOP control stands in wide bodies. I have yet to see NS send an ex-Conrail desktop control stand unit out on normal freight.

Conventional stand or not, running them backwards is an eronomic nightmare. Number one is the stress to the neck, turning your head back and forth the entire trip. Not just a few degrees, but all 180°. Second is the space for legs. The less my knees bang on the independant valve, the better off my life will be. Even in yard service, I do not turn the chair to face the control stand because this potential for injury (I work in a smaller yard, properly set up where a mirror will suffice for these movements). On the road, you back is to the side window, you cannot run with the seat facing backwards. I don't want to end up a cripple by the time I retire.

HoggerKen wrote:Conventional stand or not, running them backwards is an eronomic nightmare. Number one is the stress to the neck, turning your head back and forth the entire trip. Not just a few degrees, but all 180°.

Your talking about Desktop stands. Not all wide bodies have these stands. Have you ever been in an NS Dash 9? The control stand is mounted sideways. Not angled. Running long hood or short hood, there is no difference in ergonomics. You simply swivel the seat to the direction you want to go. Again, we are not talking about desktops. There is no reason to have to rely on mirrors or twisting your neck. You can easily face the direction of travel without any awkward body movements.

HoggerKen wrote:Second is the space for legs. The less my knees bang on the independant valve, the better off my life will be.

Again, sounds like you have never been in a Dash 9. They all have 30 brake with no independant brake valve regulator to bang your knees on. I am 6'5 and i can sit with the seat facing the control stand and still have no issue with leg room. And running long hod or short hood, i still have several FEET of legroom to spare.

HoggerKen wrote:Even in yard service, I do not turn the chair to face the control stand because this potential for injury (I work in a smaller yard, properly set up where a mirror will suffice for these movements).

That's personal choice. Even on older units with 26 brake and the potential to bang your knee, i still would rather sit with the seat facing the stand or at least my body facing the stand because i don't like putting my life or that of my crew at risk relying on mirrors alone. But that's just me. Just a personal choice.

HoggerKen wrote:On the road, you back is to the side window, you cannot run with the seat facing backwards. I don't want to end up a cripple by the time I retire.

Yet again, in "wide body" units with AAR stands (NOT Desktops), you can easily turn the seat 180 degrees and you don't have to have your back to the window. You can run them facing the direction of travel without any issue. Again, i am 6'5 and i can do it. Unless your taller then me, you can too. You just need to experiment with the seat.

Editing such long parsed replies are not going to work with this software.

On a conventional control stand, which is what I run almost exclusively. The controls, guages, and speed recorder are facing an engineer when running forward, when running reverse, and facing the control stand, you must turn your head at least 30 to 40° to see the speed recorder or other guages, and 85° in the opposite direction to see the view "ahead" of you. Do this a hundred times a shift, and you end up very sore. I could not do this at are 24, much less at age 52.

Having never been in a dash anything with a conventional control stand (unless you count B23-7's and C40's), I take your word for it. But for the chair to swivel, you end up with .5 inches of room for one's knees, if you keep them at an angle, at 5' 9" as I am. Same goes for any EMD with a conventional stand. The best you can expect is to lock the seat facing the control stand (225° from forward) and against the side window. Even then, there is all sorts of possibility in 8 hours you bang your knee at least while looking from guages to rear view in such sparce accomodations for space. The level of your knees are at the exact height of the bottom casting of the independant.

I use the mirror in yard service because all I need to see is the switch points as I move in reverse, or the occasional dolt who crosses my path (and the deer, coons, turkeys, woodchucks as well as managers with red flags). Because the mirror is mounted outside of the cab, I get a better view of what is behind me since it allows a wider angle around the long hood. And I can still field hand or lantern signals out the front window, along with all my guages in a single eye movement (not to mention reach for my bottle of tea ).

In working a local back in 2001 using a single unit, I tried everything from sitting on the heater (the back of your head is almost resting against the speed recorder), to standing when running backwards. Both the GP38's and GP60's were never made to run backwards facing backwards with the seat. Half of the control stand is behind your seat when turned towards the back door. Most do not have the wall sliders but are bolted to the floor. Even if you could slide the seat all the way against the heater, the throttle is about at the middle your gut, and could not get to idle because of the seat. And turning to watch your train in curves, not going to happen unless you stand up lean out the window. Your guages are still 45° to 100° out of your view.

HoggerKen wrote:Editing such long parsed replies are not going to work with this software.

On a conventional control stand, which is what I run almost exclusively. The controls, guages, and speed recorder are facing an engineer when running forward, when running reverse, and facing the control stand, you must turn your head at least 30 to 40° to see the speed recorder or other guages, and 85° in the opposite direction to see the view "ahead" of you. Do this a hundred times a shift, and you end up very sore. I could not do this at are 24, much less at age 52.

Having never been in a dash anything with a conventional control stand (unless you count B23-7's and C40's), I take your word for it. But for the chair to swivel, you end up with .5 inches of room for one's knees, if you keep them at an angle, at 5' 9" as I am. Same goes for any EMD with a conventional stand. The best you can expect is to lock the seat facing the control stand (225° from forward) and against the side window. Even then, there is all sorts of possibility in 8 hours you bang your knee at least while looking from guages to rear view in such sparce accomodations for space. The level of your knees are at the exact height of the bottom casting of the independant.

I use the mirror in yard service because all I need to see is the switch points as I move in reverse, or the occasional dolt who crosses my path (and the deer, coons, turkeys, woodchucks as well as managers with red flags). Because the mirror is mounted outside of the cab, I get a better view of what is behind me since it allows a wider angle around the long hood. And I can still field hand or lantern signals out the front window, along with all my guages in a single eye movement (not to mention reach for my bottle of tea ).

In working a local back in 2001 using a single unit, I tried everything from sitting on the heater (the back of your head is almost resting against the speed recorder), to standing when running backwards. Both the GP38's and GP60's were never made to run backwards facing backwards with the seat. Half of the control stand is behind your seat when turned towards the back door. Most do not have the wall sliders but are bolted to the floor. Even if you could slide the seat all the way against the heater, the throttle is about at the middle your gut, and could not get to idle because of the seat. And turning to watch your train in curves, not going to happen unless you stand up lean out the window. Your guages are still 45° to 100° out of your view.

Based on what your saying you run, then it's no surprise you have a Negative view of long hood forward running!. Hopefully one day you will have the ability to get on a Dash 9 and you will be happily surprised!. The control stand is not angled at all and it's not as close as a normal control stand. There is plenty of room. So all the issues you have will go out the window.

And as far as conventional cab NW/NS units, Those setup for long hood running basically had the control stand flipped around to the left side. So there was no issue with comfort their either. I do agree with you, standard cabs not setup for long hood running are no fun. No argument there.

I have had the unfortunate opportunity to operate an NS -9 long hood forward and it is not an ergonomic pratice. While the control stand is a bit further away from the seat, you are still sitting with your back against the window looking past your left shoulder, and unless your only 5' tall your knees still contact the control stand. To add to the fun, the GE -9 radiators overhang severely obstructs your view of the track ahead. This is an antiquated practice that needs to be abolished for safety's sake.